Prom 35 - 9.08.13: Mahler – 'Resurrection' Symphony

[amac4165]

I know some Prommers have complained that when listening to the concert at home after the event that the broadcast or iplayer has not captured what was heard in the hall but equally could there not be rose toned ear trumpets at play . If one goes to see Jansons conduct this - it will be great - and that is how it is heard in an adrenaline buzzing hall . At home to my ears , whilst there were indeed beautiful moments - it sounded underpowered . Edashtav's review sums the performance up very well .

broadcasts never capture what you hear in the hall - in particular the RAH has such variable acoustics you would need 5500 different recordings ! (I have just listened to the ending - by any stretch of the imagination it is nothing like what I heard last night !)

In the hall very interesting - almost understated performance. Chorus probably 1/3 of what you need and the positioning of timpani (high central back) always meant they were going to be virtually inaudible in the arena. However infinitely superior to the last two outings at the Proms - (although that is not actually saying much ! )

Someone - a few years ago - told me me you will never hear a great Mahler 2 or 8 in RAH - good ones but not great ones as it was impossible to generate enough weight in the hall. I tend to agree.

amac

[teamsaint]

Like Rolmill, I thought the Contralto Soloist was excellent.

[Petrushka]

broadcasts never capture what you hear in the hall - in particular the RAH has such variable acoustics you would need 5500 different recordings ! (I have just listened to the ending - by any stretch of the imagination it is nothing like what I heard last night !)

In the hall very interesting - almost understated performance. Chorus probably 1/3 of what you need and the positioning of timpani (high central back) always meant they were going to be virtually inaudible in the arena. However infinitely superior to the last two outings at the Proms - (although that is not actually saying much ! )

Someone - a few years ago - told me me you will never hear a great Mahler 2 or 8 in RAH - good ones but not great ones as it was impossible to generate enough weight in the hall. I tend to agree.

amac

'Understated' is the very last thing you need in a performance of Mahler 2. Sorry to go on about the timpani but in this of all symphonies it is crucial that it makes a big, big impact. I think it was in a rehearsal of this symphony under Mahler himself that he kept on asking for so much more from the timpanist that it eventually broke the drumskin. This is the kind of effort that is required and which was so feeble last night. From Jansons this was puzzlingly below expectations.

[Simon B]

Having just looked back at the history of Mahler 2s at the Proms in the last 20 years (I keep meaning to "get a life" as they say, but realistically, it's hopeless now!) it's not a good one IMO...

BRSO/Jansons 2013: The first chamber Mahler 2

Dudamel/SBYO 2011: The opposite of last night, extreme dynamics, thunderous timps, large chorus, but rather showy and manipulated by Dudamel to the point of grinding to a halt.

BBCSO/Haitink 2006: Something went very wrong that night, endless glaringly severe problems in the brass, Haitink seemed out of sorts, possibly unwell - out of nowhere though the closing section was very moving.

VPO/Rattle 1999: Gripping - until the coda. The RAH organ was deployed despite the VPO pitch - to pathetically inaudible effect for some reason. The sense of anticlimax was overwhelming!

BBCNOW/Wigglesworth 1998: No idea, as I couldn't go to this one.

BPO/Abbado 1996: Bit of a disaster. This was the one where the offstage brass didn't play (I seem to recall possibly apocryphal explanations involving a contractual dispute). Abbado looked like he was going to snap his baton in two, storm offstage and then start strangling people! Inaudible electronic organ at the end crowned a tension-free final section and completed the flop.

BBCPO/Mackerras 1995: Not the most refined, tension flagged a bit in the middle, but everyone went for it, and the end (with the large contingent of offstage brass ranged around the gallery blazing away for extra oomph) with the pre-refurb RAH organ at absolute maximum floor-shaking welly was completely overwhelming. Best of a dubious bunch IMO!

[teamsaint]

Simon B.....great round up.

If you can offer that sort of service, I wouldn't bother with the getting a life thing....you would be wasted !!


Anyway, a great Mahler 2 at the Proms looks a hard trick to pull off from your analysis....We'll have to settle for the chamber version till the next time !!

[Petrushka]

Having just looked back at the history of Mahler 2s at the Proms in the last 20 years (I keep meaning to "get a life" as they say, but realistically, it's hopeless now!) it's not a good one IMO...

BRSO/Jansons 2013: The first chamber Mahler 2

Dudamel/SBYO 2011: The opposite of last night, extreme dynamics, thunderous timps, large chorus, but rather showy and manipulated by Dudamel to the point of grinding to a halt.

BBCSO/Haitink 2006: Something went very wrong that night, endless glaringly severe problems in the brass, Haitink seemed out of sorts, possibly unwell - out of nowhere though the closing section was very moving.

VPO/Rattle 1999: Gripping - until the coda. The RAH organ was deployed despite the VPO pitch - to pathetically inaudible effect for some reason. The sense of anticlimax was overwhelming!

BBCNOW/Wigglesworth 1998: No idea, as I couldn't go to this one.

BPO/Abbado 1996: Bit of a disaster. This was the one where the offstage brass didn't play (I seem to recall possibly apocryphal explanations involving a contractual dispute). Abbado looked like he was going to snap his baton in two, storm offstage and then start strangling people! Inaudible electronic organ at the end crowned a tension-free final section and completed the flop.

BBCPO/Mackerras 1995: Not the most refined, tension flagged a bit in the middle, but everyone went for it, and the end (with the large contingent of offstage brass ranged around the gallery blazing away for extra oomph) with the pre-refurb RAH organ at absolute maximum floor-shaking welly was completely overwhelming. Best of a dubious bunch IMO!

Pretty good round-up, Simon B. Joining you in the 'Get a Life' stakes I'll go slightly further back.

1992 - BBC NOW/Otaka. Sorry can't remember this one at all. Certainly wasn't there but can't even recall the broadcast. See that Lesley Garrett was the soprano soloist.

1985 - ECYO/Abbado. Now you're talking! I was at this one and remember it well as it was the only time I saw Christa Ludwig. Pick of the bunch this one I think.

1984 - Boston SO/Ozawa. I was at this one too. A bit on the bland and underpowered side as well if memory serves but would like to hear it again one day.

1978- LPO/Haitink. This was my second ever Prom and must join the 1985 Abbado as the best Proms rendition I've heard. Wasn't this the occasion when Haitink waved a hanky in the air to silence a persistent cougher? Would love to hear this Prom again as all were on top form.

Can any other 'get a lifer' take us further back?

[Resurrection Man]

This was my sixth live Resurrection. Seated in the stalls, left hand side.

For me, there were some truly beautiful moments so much so that this old softy had tears down his cheeks. The soloists were perfect to my ears and I really liked the balance with the off-stage performers. The tempo OK.

I had great expectations for this concert particularly as it was probably my last Prom as schlepping all the way down t'smoke and staying over is getting just too expensive. Sadly the minimalist choir did nothing for me and as for the electronic organ the least said the better. Pathetic. This work demands a large choir and not to use that wonderful RAH organ a travesty.

Still on the plus side I had a very interesting conversation with a delightful young lady to my right who, it turned out, was a violinist with the Mahler Chamber Orchestra and had come to see her boyfriend who was performing on stage in the cello section.

ts ...great shame we didn't know of each others' attendance...a pint would have gone down well!

[teamsaint]

This was my sixth live Resurrection. Seated in the stalls, left hand side.

For me, there were some truly beautiful moments so much so that this old softy had tears down his cheeks. The soloists were perfect to my ears and I really liked the balance with the off-stage performers. The tempo OK.

I had great expectations for this concert particularly as it was probably my last Prom as schlepping all the way down t'smoke and staying over is getting just too expensive. Sadly the minimalist choir did nothing for me and as for the electronic organ the least said the better. Pathetic. This work demands a large choir and not to use that wonderful RAH organ a travesty.

Still on the plus side I had a very interesting conversation with a delightful young lady to my right who, it turned out, was a violinist with the Mahler Chamber Orchestra and had come to see her boyfriend who was performing on stage in the cello section.

ts ...great shame we didn't know of each others' attendance...a pint would have gone down well!

Yes, excellent point about the off stage performers. Sounded just right to this novice
The pint will have to be for another time, RM.....a shame, as you say.......keep looking for the cheap "advance" train tickets, and we can maybe meet up another time......

[Petrushka]

Hmm, I've just listened to this performance again in the recording I made from R3 and find myself more impressed than I was in the hall. Perhaps Choir East isn't exactly the right place to be but the microphones caught the whole thing very well indeed. Of course the visceral impact of the bass drum couldn't match the reality (it was like being punched in the solar plexus) but the cymbals came across with great clarity even to that tiny, ultra quiet brush during the trombones intonation of the Dies Irae in the finale. You wouldn't know it was there on many recordings but here it was crystal clear.

In some ways the microphones probably made up for the lack of numbers in the chorus as there didn't seem any lack of weight as it came across in the broadcast. Needless to the say, the electronic organ was still inaudible while timps came up better than they did in the hall but still needed extra clout. Better than many recordings even so. The off-stage brass and percussion sounded magical in the hall, something that no radio relay will ever actually convey but this came as close as it was possible to get.

All in all, this was one of those rare occasions when I felt that the broadcast did better justice to the performance than the reality. Plaudits for the engineers are in order, I'd say.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Can any other 'get a lifer' take us further back?

My first and to date only Proms Mahler 2 was 27/8/74: Palmer, Troyanos, LPO Choir & BBC Choral Soc, BBCSO/ Boulez.

Have managed 3 non-Prom performances since then

[mercia]

My first and to date only Proms Mahler 2 was 27/8/74: Palmer, Troyanos, LPO Choir & BBC Choral Soc, BBCSO/ Boulez.

ah yes, I was at that one, not that I can remember much about it, except that we were sitting above and behind the percussion, which makes me wonder now where the chorus was situated

that concert had a first "half" which I guess a Mahler 2 never would these days (if you see what I mean)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/search/1970s/1974/august-27/8641

[LeMartinPecheur]

ah yes, I was at that one, not that I can remember much about it, except that we were sitting above and behind the percussion, which makes me wonder now where the chorus was situated

that concert had a first "half" which I guess a Mahler 2 never would these days (if you see what I mean)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/s...august-27/8641

mercia: IIRC I was sitting quite high up, a bit to the left of centre but well out in front of the platform. I noted that the Mozart didn't project very well, but the Mahler was quite the opposite! I wrote it up as "One of the finest concerts I have ever attended" though my experiance of big orchestral/choral concerts was limited then: I was only 20 But I do remember the percussion crescendos to this day! So does my then fiancee, now wife, who was alongside me.

Were you at the following night's prom? Handel Concerto Grosso Op6/1, Mozart pf conc 25 (Narine Barrett); STRAUSS EIN HELDENLEBEN (RPO/ KEMPE).

Excuse the caps but that was the really memorable bit - I heard Kempe in Heldenleben!!!!

[Barbirollians]

I have just listened to a pair of live recordings by Bruno Walter in the 1941/2 with the NYPO on Music and Arts .

They are stunning , visceral accounts . I don't think I shall ever hear Mahler 1 in the same way again but it exemplified to me what was wrong with this Resurrection - too pretty , too safe , too neat and too small !

[johnb]

My first and to date only Proms Mahler 2 was 27/8/74: Palmer, Troyanos, LPO Choir & BBC Choral Soc, BBCSO/ Boulez.

My first Mahler 2 (and the first Mahler I ever heard live) was at the Free Trade Hall with Barbirolli conducting the Halle. I had already got to know the work through the CBS Bruno Walter recording but I cannot describe the overwhelming impact that Barbirolli's live performance had on me.

(I remember reading a rather snooty review in the Manchester Evening Post. These days it is difficult to imagine the very mixed opinions about Mahler's music that were prevalent in the 1960s.)

[mercia]

Were you at the following night's prom? Handel Concerto Grosso Op6/1, Mozart pf conc 25 (Narine Barrett); STRAUSS EIN HELDENLEBEN (RPO/ KEMPE).

no the Mahler was a one-off, a birthday treat for grandma (!) - who I think found the whole thing rather loud and frightening
at that time I wouldn't have heard of Kempe (or Boulez for that matter)