Prom 23 - 30.07.13: Mozart, Schumann & Sibelius

[Karafan]

I have decided, that's my phrase du jour, Sir V: "accretions of solemnity". Rolls right off the tongue. I shall be irritating the OH with that...

[BBMmk2]

Mozart and #Schumann(who thinks of these programmes!?!?)_

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Mozart and #Schumann(who thinks of these programmes!?!?)_

Music lovers!

[Petrushka]

Music lovers!

[Nick Armstrong]

Music lovers!

Listened to this concert driving back from the coast today: I agree with the positive comments above.

Karafan, à propos your (?new) signature quote, do you know this (of which a large copy used to hang in the loo here, in the days when I had a Light-15 ) ?

[BBMmk2]

I might hear this on iplayer today!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I might hear this on iplayer today!

[Karafan]

Listened to this concert driving back from the coast today: I agree with the positive comments above.

Karafan, à propos your (?new) signature quote, do you know this (of which a large copy used to hang in the loo here, in the days when I had a Light-15 ) ?

No, never seen that Cali! Excellent

[Barbirollians]

I heard Michael Sherrard tell that story - the judge apparently replied - Very good Mr Sherrard but I do the jokes in this court !

[cloughie]

Good to hear those accretions of solemnity stripped away to something more akin to what Schumann would have heard.

Maybe but I bet he would have loudly applauded Solti and the VPO!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maybe but I bet he would have loudly applauded Solti and the VPO!

Maybe.

[slarty]

Good to hear those accretions of solemnity stripped away to something more akin to what Schumann would have heard.

While stripping away those "accretions of solemnity" they have actually gone too far and replaced it with an asanine half -baked idea of balance, which did not work.
Having heard the broadcast and seen the telecast I can mention the following.

Brass "original" 19th century trumpets and tenor trombone coupled with modern Horns - daft - why? they don't sound good together, so why not 19th century horns?
Woodwind - all playing the best quality modern instruments - complete section - 2-2-2-2 fine. So why not original instruments?
Strings were playing in that half "original instrument mode" with little or no vibrato and that very light side bow mode which produces less tone (I am a violinist).
The String section was 40 strong(or should I say 40 weak) 12-10-8-6-4 and they were very underpowered. (they also played in this manner in the Sibelius which is not great)
I can't see the point in mixing the styles of "original" with modern.
The overall balance in this performance was now the "other" way - too much woodwind and brass against too little string sound. This is not what the composer envisaged.
This is called throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Thin sounding does not make it better, it just emasculates the sound.

I put forwards two quotes made by Rafael Kubelik to me in 1979 at the Herkulessaal in Munich during his recording sessions for the Schumann second symphony -
"one does not need to go as far as Mahler did by doubling the woodwind, I find that by reducing the strings by one desk each (from 60 to 50) and then letting them play as they normally would, is sufficient to bring about the neccessary correct balance". He also said that the normal performance standard at the time these works were composed was pretty poor and until the advent of the professional conductor in the later 19th century (Wagner, Von Bülow ect) the standard did not rise very much, and he felt sure that if the composers, were given a choice between then and now, every one of them would choose now. He finished by saying that "after all, every composer heard it perfectly in his head before any musician got into the act".

As Kubelik's Schumann symphony sets have been praised in another thread, I need only refer all to that.

[Nick Armstrong]

While stripping away those "accretions of solemnity" they have actually gone too far and replaced it with an asanine half -baked idea of balance, which did not work.
Having heard the broadcast and seen the telecast I can mention the following.

Brass "original" 19th century trumpets and tenor trombone coupled with modern Horns - daft - why? they don't sound good together, so why not 19th century horns?
Woodwind - all playing the best quality modern instruments - complete section - 2-2-2-2 fine. So why not original instruments?
Strings were playing in that half "original instrument mode" with little or no vibrato and that very light side bow mode which produces less tone (I am a violinist).
The String section was 40 strong(or should I say 40 weak) 12-10-8-6-4 and they were very underpowered. (they also played in this manner in the Sibelius which is not great)
I can't see the point in mixing the styles of "original" with modern.
The overall balance in this performance was now the "other" way - too much woodwind and brass against too little string sound. This is not what the composer envisaged.
This is called throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Thin sounding does not make it better, it just emasculates the sound.

I put forwards two quotes made by Rafael Kubelik to me in 1979 at the Herkulessaal in Munich during his recording sessions for the Schumann second symphony -
"one does not need to go as far as Mahler did by doubling the woodwind, I find that by reducing the strings by one desk each (from 60 to 50) and then letting them play as they normally would, is sufficient to bring about the neccessary correct balance". He also said that the normal performance standard at the time these works were composed was pretty poor and until the advent of the professional conductor in the later 19th century (Wagner, Von Bülow ect) the standard did not rise very much, and he felt sure that if the composers, were given a choice between then and now, every one of them would choose now. He finished by saying that "after all, every composer heard it perfectly in his head before any musician got into the act".

As Kubelik's Schumann symphony sets have been praised in another thread, I need only refer all to that.

Fascinating slarty, thank you

Allowing for the possibility of something idiotic on the part of the sound engineers, I totally agree with your point about balance: the opening of the symphony was quite astonishing (not in a good way), all nasal brass and wind and virtually none of the wonderful caressing string music. Couldn't believe it

And yes - the odd bits of token 'period brass'...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I put forwards two quotes made by Rafael Kubelik to me in 1979 at the Herkulessaal in Munich during his recording sessions for the Schumann second symphony -
"one does not need to go as far as Mahler did by doubling the woodwind, I find that by reducing the strings by one desk each (from 60 to 50) and then letting them play as they normally would, is sufficient to bring about the neccessary correct balance". He also said that the normal performance standard at the time these works were composed was pretty poor and until the advent of the professional conductor in the later 19th century (Wagner, Von Bülow ect) the standard did not rise very much, and he felt sure that if the composers, were given a choice between then and now, every one of them would choose now. He finished by saying that "after all, every composer heard it perfectly in his head before any musician got into the act".

As Kubelik's Schumann symphony sets have been praised in another thread, I need only refer all to that.

Excellent Post altogether, slarty, but (and I speak as one who praised Kubelik's Schumann on that - and many other - threads) I don't think he was correct here. Mendelssohn conducted the premieres of the First, Second and Fourth (revised version) Symphonies with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, where standards were very high (as Schumann's own comments suggest). Schumann conducted the premieres of the (original) Fourth (a poor performance which partly led to the revisions) and the Rhenish - with his own orchestra in Dusseldorff (by which time, his experience and competence as a conductor had much improved). It is probably (I don't know - I wasn't there) fair to say that "the normal performance standard" at Dusseldorff didn't match that at Leipzig, but there are no comparable revisions to the Rhenish to suggest that what Schumann heard from that orchestra was so far from what he "heard perfectly in his head".

[amateur51]

Very interesting post slarty - how good to have an orchestral strings expert in our number; those brass players can make a bit of a racket

Being a mere civilian, I was very taken with Daniel Harding's (to me) new low-impact conducting style. He's previously struck me as one of the foremost traffic directors of his generation but on the TV broadcast he was positively latter-day Rattlerian