Prom 21 - 29.07.13: Colin Matthews, Prokofiev & Shostakovich

[pilamenon]

I felt as if I was living during Stalin's rule of terror.

To what extent is this symphony another response to Stalin's reign, or is it, as its title suggests, actually about the events of 1905? Or a response to events in 1956 Hungary reflected through a Russian parallel? I only ask, as I feel there is more to Shostakovich than Stalin, so to speak. Given that the ruthlessness and brutality of the Russian state (though to some extent incompetence played its part in 1905) was endemic long before Stalin grabbed power, I'm interested that your response to the music focused on the latter. I always picture myself in Palace Square, in the snow, with the Cossacks standing guard - then chaos, bloodshed, mourning and mounting anger.

Totally agree that it was superbly done by the BBCNOW last night.

[edashtav]

The Year 1905, the 1930s, or the 1956 revolution in Hungary?

To what extent is this symphony another response to Stalin's reign, or is it, as its title suggests, actually about the events of 1905? Or a response to events in 1956 Hungary reflected through a Russian parallel? I only ask, as I feel there is more to Shostakovich than Stalin, so to speak. Given that the ruthlessness and brutality of the Russian state (though to some extent incompetence played its part in 1905) was endemic long before Stalin grabbed power, I'm interested that your response to the music focused on the latter. I always picture myself in Palace Square, in the snow, with the Cossacks standing guard - then chaos, bloodshed, mourning and mounting anger.

Totally agree that it was superbly done by the BBCNOW last night.

I suppose the answer is that there are multiple layers of meaning and references throughout Shostakovich's music. He had to dissemble to survive but, at the same time, irony was a vital part of his musical nature. Will be ever "know" Shostakovich, perfectly? After all the musical world shows a rainbow non-coalition over how to interpret the finale to his most popular symphony (5th). Many reports suggest that the 11th Symphony is Shostakovich's personal reaction to the 1956 uprising in Hungary. The truth may be more complex:

"The composer skillfully facilitated this mutually convenient myopia. He always found an acceptable pretext, suggesting the possibility of loyal interpretation. Otherwise, how could he have responded to the Soviet reprisal in 1956 against the Hungarian rebels, with its roaring tanks and thundering guns, except through the songs of pre-revolutionary Russian rebels and prisoners, the image of a country in chains? And what if he had not entitled his Eleventh Symphony ‘The Year 1905’ and timed its appearance to the fortieth anniversary of the Soviet Union?
Shostakovich excelled in making gestures of reassurance to the prison guards while surreptitiously releasing his true thoughts to the world outside." Orlov (A Shostakovich Casebook.)
[my italics]
My own personal reaction is that Shostakovich was shaped by, and constantly relived, the terrors of the 1930's. Those terrors were real and immediate for him as his son, Maxim, has written:


The fact is he and all his family were hostages of a criminal and merciless regime, and every word Father uttered was with a look back over his
shoulder at his all-powerful tormentors. [. . .]
Unfortunately Shostakovich happened to live not in Nicholas I’s Russia but in Stalin’s Soviet Union. There were times when Father felt he was a hair’s brea[d]th away from destruction

What the work depicts is secondary, what matters is that it be revealed in primary colours not 50 shades of grey.

Last night's performance did that.

[Sir Velo]

(Dear Katie D... after Turning Point, gabbled something about platform layout, "with not only 1st and 2nd violins but also 3rds"... leaving you thinking - sorry, what, where, er...? It's almost becoming endearing.)

Katie does come out with some beauties doesn't she? In her usual hagiographic way, she described Daniel Hope as "a violinist of unusual intelligence and technique". What this means she thinks of violinists as a general breed I'll leave it to others to guess...

[Anna]

Enjoyed every moment of this Prom and was about to say how good that it is to be broadcast on BBC4 on 4th August - however, on checking I find it will be an edited version. The Colin Matthews will be omitted (as was the David Matthews last week) What's going on? I can understand the Lachenmann not being televised as it may very well have frightened the horses (viewers) but both Matthews brothers pieces being scrapped? On the D. Matthews thread french frank hinted it was possibly political .... but didn't elaborate. The tv blurb says 'Tom Service presents his distinctive take on the music' perhaps it's been jettisoned to make way for the pundits to waffle?

[teamsaint]

I agree with Anna . A really enjoyable concert, and removing the Colin Matthews from the TV broadcast is pretty shoddy work to say the least. What possible reason can there be for leaving out the work of respected living composers? must be very dispiriting for them and their students and admirers in the composing community. (if there is such a thing !!)
I always enjoy his music, though I need to hear a lot more of it.
The Shosty was indeed very inspiring.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I can understand the Lachenmann not being televised as it may very well have frightened the horses (viewers)

If this is the reason, then the Beeb has a very low opinion of its horses!

A conductor puts together a programme of works which s/he considers complement each other - it shouldn't be up to some spotty gonk to decide that this can (and even, for the benefit of the viewers, should) be byggered around with.

[mercia]

the weird thing [which I don't understand] is that we are allowed to watch 2'40" worth of Matthews straightaway

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01dh3sz

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry to come back a little late on this, some head/eye/screen problems just now, but following Edashtav's excellent Ed-it (no.17), I would add that the 11th seems as much a public statement as the 10th was personal. No.10 is all about that DSCH motif, but does that signature occur anywhere explicitly in the 11th? It maybe embedded in there somewhere, but you're not really aware of it. Darker moments in No.10 feel very introspective, in No.11 very pictorial, projected outwards. The individual agonies in an oppressive state (Stalin as its symbol) in the one, the agonised and memorialised people in the grip of a tyrannising power in the other. Defiant crazy joy of the 10th, a dance on the grave of the oppressor... the 11th, especially if the tocsin resounds so overwhelmingly as it did this itme, just leaves you devastated. No wonder it's played and recorded less often.

So hard to know where to complain about the appalling excision of new music from BBC4, (are they ignorant of Henry Wood himself, conducting the world premiere of Schoenberg's Op.16?!)... who is doing this - BBC Music, Radio 3, BBC4 itself... ? They'd probably all pass the buck.

[Opsimath]

Sorry to come back a little late on this, some head/eye/screen problems just now, but following Edashtav's excellent Ed-it (no.17), I would add that the 11th seems as much a public statement as the 10th was personal. No.10 is all about that DSCH motif, but does that signature occur anywhere explicitly in the 11th? It maybe embedded in there somewhere, but you're not really aware of it. Darker moments in No.10 feel very introspective, in No.11 very pictorial, projected outwards. The individual agonies in an oppressive state (Stalin as its symbol) in the one, the agonised and memorialised people in the grip of a tyrannising power in the other. Defiant crazy joy of the 10th, a dance on the grave of the oppressor... the 11th, especially if the tocsin resounds so overwhelmingly as it did this itme, just leaves you devastated. No wonder it's played and recorded less often.

So hard to know where to complain about the appalling excision of new music from BBC4, (are they ignorant of Henry Wood himself, conducting the world premiere of Schoenberg's Op.16?!)... who is doing this - BBC Music, Radio 3, BBC4 itself... ? They'd probably all pass the buck.

I believe the Colin Matthews piece will be broadcast on BBC 4 as part of a programme of new music from the Proms and when Katie Derham said there were 1st, 2nd and 3rd violins she was absolutely right; that was how Matthews arranged them.

[edashtav]

Shostakovich Behind the Lines

Sorry to come back a little late on this, some head/eye/screen problems just now, but following Edashtav's excellent Ed-it (no.17), I would add that the 11th seems as much a public statement as the 10th was personal. No.10 is all about that DSCH motif, but does that signature occur anywhere explicitly in the 11th? It maybe embedded in there somewhere, but you're not really aware of it. Darker moments in No.10 feel very introspective, in No.11 very pictorial, projected outwards. The individual agonies in an oppressive state (Stalin as its symbol) in the one, the agonised and memorialised people in the grip of a tyrannising power in the other. Defiant crazy joy of the 10th, a dance on the grave of the oppressor... the 11th, especially if the tocsin resounds so overwhelmingly as it did this time, just leaves you devastated. No wonder it's played and recorded less often.
.

That's very lucid and helpful, jlw. Little by little we're inching towards a better understanding of Shostakovich's music and how it should be played. Surely one issue is that his text is not as close to what he wanted to hear as it could be? That's because had his message been blatant & obvious to all, his freedom and possibly his life might have been jeopardised "Read between the [five] lines," may be the most important message DSCH can send us from his grave.

[jayne lee wilson]

I believe the Colin Matthews piece will be broadcast on BBC 4 as part of a programme of new music from the Proms and when Katie Derham said there were 1st, 2nd and 3rd violins she was absolutely right; that was how Matthews arranged them.

Hello Opsimath, welcome... (where DO people get these names...googling... ah, I see!), but my problem with Katie's comment was that it gave no indication of the layout - perhaps you can tell us where the 3rds were placed on the platform? Any other layout oddities?

"New Music From the Proms" is fine in itself, but runs into the preaching-to-the-converted problem. Ghettoisation, no attempt to relate present to past, etc.
Did Henry Wood ever programme a New Music Prom? Doubtful. And Boulez at The Roundhouse was a (very) Special Agent.

Mind you, some programmes go almost to the opposite extreme - this Friday's great clunking rumbling in-articulated juggernaut may do no favours to any of its constituents (mixed metaphor alert!) and what about James Macmillan's Violin Concerto, sandwiched (or crushed) between the Beautiful Blue Danube and Beethoven's 5th? I DO hope these pieces all speak to each other...

[Petrushka]

I can confirm that the Matthews piece as well as the Lachenmann earlier in the season were both recorded for TV. A pity they cannot be seen on TV in the context of the whole concert. I will record the constituent parts and attempt an editing job.

[teamsaint]

Hello Opsimath, welcome... (where DO people get these names...googling... ah, I see!), but my problem with Katie's comment was that it gave no indication of the layout - perhaps you can tell us where the 3rds were placed on the platform? Any other layout oddities?

"New Music From the Proms" is fine in itself, but runs into the preaching-to-the-converted problem. Ghettoisation, no attempt to relate present to past, etc.
Did Henry Wood ever programme a New Music Prom? Doubtful. And Boulez at The Roundhouse was a (very) Special Agent.

Mind you, some programmes go almost to the opposite extreme - this Friday's great clunking rumbling in-articulated juggernaut may do no favours to any of its constituents (mixed metaphor alert!) and what about James Macmillan's Violin Concerto, sandwiched (or crushed) between the Beautiful Blue Danube and Beethoven's 5th? I DO hope these pieces all speak to each other...

I learn an awful lot on this board, and your comment about relating present to past connects so well the most profound(ok, ok , I know) musical lesson of the year so far, for me. That lesson was from FHG, who pointed out the connections between some of the 2VS piano music and the LvB Sonatas.The process , the vital process, of seeing the connections rather than the disconnection,s between musicians of different eras, cannot possibly be helped by ghettoisation.
I guess the structuralists had it right all along.....
(with apologies to all theother from whom I have learned important lessons this year.)

[Opsimath]

Hello Opsimath, welcome... (where DO people get these names...googling... ah, I see!), but my problem with Katie's comment was that it gave no indication of the layout - perhaps you can tell us where the 3rds were placed on the platform? Any other layout oddities?

"New Music From the Proms" is fine in itself, but runs into the preaching-to-the-converted problem. Ghettoisation, no attempt to relate present to past, etc.
Did Henry Wood ever programme a New Music Prom? Doubtful. And Boulez at The Roundhouse was a (very) Special Agent.

Mind you, some programmes go almost to the opposite extreme - this Friday's great clunking rumbling in-articulated juggernaut may do no favours to any of its constituents (mixed metaphor alert!) and what about James Macmillan's Violin Concerto, sandwiched (or crushed) between the Beautiful Blue Danube and Beethoven's 5th? I DO hope these pieces all speak to each other...

I wouldn't claim to begin to understand the unseen negotiations that take place to get music on to our televisions and, as you suggest, scheduling is perhaps not as straightforward as it might at first seem. I merely note that the Matthews is scheduled for an appearance, contrary to what might initially have been thought by some posters.

The violin dispositions, as far as I could tell, saw the 1sts in a line along the outside edge of the stage. The first desk of 2nds was in its usual position. The second desk of 2nds was (looking from the audience) behind and to the left with the section in a line back from there. The normal place for the third desk of 2nds (behind the first desk and to the right) was occupied by the first desk of 3rds with the rest of that section going back from there.

Not quite a thousand words but a picture would have painted them far more successfully!

[Petrushka]

Just watched the TV broadcast and if anything the Shostakovich came across even more powerfully than it did in the hall last Monday. Special mention must be made of the highly intelligent camera direction on offer tonight giving us, as all good camera direction should, an insight into the nuts and bolts of the score and enhancing the tremendous impact of the performance. This was quite outstanding work from all concerned.

Even Tom Service's intros were well done but wasn't as keen on the closing sequence which was unnecessary. Other than that 10/10!