Prom 16 - 24.07.13: Elgar, Bantock, Walton & Tchaikovsky

[edashtav]

The trumpet refrain in the Hebridean Symphony is divided between 3 trumpets and is not IMO a miscalculation. It generates great tension; we enjoyed playing the piece a few years ago and went on to play the Pagan Symphony and the Sea Poems. Not a dud among them. Great to play and great to listen to.

Well, I'm glad that Granville thought of the poor, bloody trumpeters, rather than leaving their valves "open all hours", but I'm unconvinced that he considered the ears of the listeners when he composed his Hebridean symphony. We're discussing in this thread whether Elgar's Falstaff has symphonic pretensions, we could consider whether all of Bantocks symphonies should be reclassified as symphonic poems. Perhaps, we could all agree that a rainbow collection of works as different as red and violet, chalk and cheese, can inhabit the set "symphony".

Pabmusic rightly points out that Elgar termed Falstaff "a symphonic study". Surely, the word study refers to Elgar's attempt to explore Falstaff's character and that personality's contribution to shaping a sense of what it is to be "English"? The term symphonic in this context is not a structural definition, any more than it would be if the work had been labelled "symphonic poem". In his dedication, Elgar calls the work "a tragedy". Falstaff is often reduced to a cardboard cut-out figure, a two-dimensional man full of boisterous joviality, Elgar portrayed him in a greater variety of moods, all shot through with a tragic "force of destiny". If we limit "symphony" to meaning a work of gravitas, of earnest intent, then I'll join Pabmusic and accept Falstaff as a symphony.

Where, we all agree I feel, is that we accept that Falstaff does not "play itself", it takes a sympathetic and searching conductor plus an orchestra ready to be inspired and to commit before the work "comes off the page". For me last evening, that did not occur. Falstaff remained pallid, moribund, a ghost of his vital self. Elgar must share some blame but the conductor, Jac van Steen, was complicit.

[Bax-of-Delights]

I was out last night so didn't get to hear the Bantock live. I'd thought I'd catch up this afternoon on Iplayer but for some reason only the second half of the programme is available. The recording is marked 2/2 so presumably there was a 1/2 but darned if I can find it anywhere.
Is it normal to only have part of the programme on iplayer?
If anyone can locate it I'd be delighted to follow the link.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Here you go, BoD:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0375sjd/BBC_Proms_2013_Season_Prom_16_Elgar_Bantock_Walton_and_Tchaikovsky/

[Bax-of-Delights]

Thanks ever so, ferny.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks ever so, ferny.

Why do they make finding the relevant sections of Proms broadcasts so hard to find??? I had to Google to locate the Ades last night.

[edashtav]

Thanks ever so, ferny.

and ... thanks from me, too!

I enjoyed listening to the Bantock again just to consider the sound engineering. I thought the BBC caught the solo cello wonderfully well. The orchestral strings sounded pale in comparison - but I don't feel that they were playing "con amore". I was interested, how prominent, loud and clear the harp was - shades of Bamberg SO and its Mahler Adagietto.

[Barbirollians]

I wasn't able to catch this Prom but I dug out the Handley/JLW recording and it is a lovely piece .

I also struggle with Falstaff - I just think it does not work unless a conductor is completely at ease with Elgar generally and is committed to both its symphonic and character aspects - even Handley's recording was a flop. Only Barbirolli and Boult's recordings have ever really excited and engaged me in the work.

[Barbirollians]

I agree about Falstaff. I remember playing it and finding it a "stodgy" work. So many better Elgar works could have been there.

Alassio is a bit overdone these days, but Froissart would have made a good starter.

HS

Well the Silvestri recording has pretty much spoiled me for any live performance !

[cloughie]

I wasn't able to catch this Prom but I dug out the Handley/JLW recording and it is a lovely piece .

I also struggle with Falstaff - I just think it does not work unless a conductor is completely at ease with Elgar generally and is committed to both its symphonic and character aspects - even Handley's recording was a flop. Only Barbirolli and Boult's recordings have ever really excited and engaged me in the work.

There was an old Anthony Collins recording on Decca that was good!

[Alison]

Sir Charles Mackerras was the supreme exponent with the London Philharmonic.

[Petrushka]

Sir Charles Mackerras was the supreme exponent with the London Philharmonic.

A wonderful recording! So is the Halle Orchestra with Barbirolli. I bought both of these on the same day in 1989.

[EdgeleyRob]

A wonderful recording! So is the Halle Orchestra with Barbirolli. I bought both of these on the same day in 1989.

Have to agree with you Pet.
Still,there wasn't a lot wrong with last night's Prom performance to my ears,I wonder if I was listening to the same concert as some forumites.
Did I read somewhere the Elgar considered Falstaff his best work,or have I imagined that ?

[Pabmusic]

...Did I read somewhere the Elgar considered Falstaff his best work,or have I imagined that ?

No, you've not imagined it. The pinch of salt you need, though, is that Elgar said things like that often, depending on his mood. We have them as quotes fixed in aspic.

[edashtav]

No, you've not imagined it. The pinch of salt you need, though, is that Elgar said things like that often, depending on his mood. We have them as quotes fixed in aspic.

Spot on, Pabmusic!

[Hornspieler]

I've just been listening to Falstaff again. In an earlier post, I said that I remembered it from years back as "stodgy". Perhaps "disjointed" would be a better word.

I've decided to rename the whole piece as "Symphony Nº 2½ (The Unfinished)"


HS