Prom 5 - 15.07.13: Bamberg Symphony Orchestra

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  • edashtav
    Full Member
    • Jul 2012
    • 3673

    #31
    Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
    And an alternative response to the work from Seth Brodsky:

    A vicious anti-masterwork, nationalistic and anarchist at once, caught between attacking great art and being great art, Lachenmann's nearly 40-minute Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied from 1980 is a problem-piece. Everything it does it also counters: it structures and then defaces old dances; it sets and then obliterates old tunes; it fashions wildly bewildering climaxes and then pulverizes them to a formal dust which extends far beyond reasonable frames. In this sense the Tanzsuite is the self-canceling apotheosis of Lachenmann's masochistic streak. But in the process, one perceives the alchemical magic of Lachenmann's methods and means: this monumental agon, even as it goes for its jugular, seems to give up a ghost, or send a spirit screaming into the hall to relay a message. And in retrospect the scope of the message -- embracing a musical history (of Haydn, Bach, folk tunes) and a political one (of Hitler and Nazism) -- seems disquietingly well-served through this music, which both smothers a terrible secret and, through its spectacularly fractured surface, lets it bleed through to stain the stage.

    Lest one moralize too much, the Tanzsuite is also a great thrill, at least for the gracious listener: few have as gruesomely effective a sense of timing and (dark) humor as Lachenmann, and absolutely no one writes for the orchestra like him. At its fullest, as in the middle gigue and tarantella, the orchestra creates such a vivid maelstrom of noises as to render the traditional ensemble sound a farce: here, in this clamor as precise and sharp as a bed of nails (and as messy as the back upon it), we hear snatches of a direct presence rare in music, certainly in of recent times.

    The general structure of the work functions much like other Lachenmann scores: the series of dances (waltzes, marches, sicilianos, galops, even a polka) are not forms to be filled but rather fields to be infested. Scratching, blowing, tearing, rubbing, sliding, and all other manner of instrumental mis-use invades and scribbles against the rhythmic profiles of each characteristic dance rhythm; likewise, when the actual German National Anthem does show up, it's barely recognizable amidst the distortions and disfigurings with which Lachenmann has dispersed its bytes throughout the orchestra.

    But whatever titillation the piece offers you, it also manages to threaten that titillation with the sense of a looming specter. German history is written large over any piece after WWII endeavoring to use the German national anthem, and Lachenmann's meticulous brutalization of the music refuses any compromise. Hence the string quartet in front of the orchestra, its nerve-center: the anthem began as a cozy emblem of that genre which the nineteenth century equated with transcendence itself, the innocent slow movement of Haydn's "Emperor" Quartet. That such music found its way into the hands of Nazis who performed it for themselves in the camps is only one bitter irony that glows over this bitter score.
    What a great quote. Well truffled, Mr. FHG!

    Comment

    • EdgeleyRob
      Guest
      • Nov 2010
      • 12180

      #32
      Some marvelous analysis of the Lachenmann piece,thanks folks.
      I listened to the whole thing but got nothing out of it,I'm in no rush to hear it again.
      The Mahler was terrific,the prominent harp in the fourth movement wasn't too much of a distraction,in fact it was fascinating to hear all the notes in the part which are quite often inaudible.

      Comment

      • Barbirollians
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 11791

        #33
        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
        And an alternative response to the work from Seth Brodsky:

        A vicious anti-masterwork, nationalistic and anarchist at once, caught between attacking great art and being great art, Lachenmann's nearly 40-minute Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied from 1980 is a problem-piece. Everything it does it also counters: it structures and then defaces old dances; it sets and then obliterates old tunes; it fashions wildly bewildering climaxes and then pulverizes them to a formal dust which extends far beyond reasonable frames. In this sense the Tanzsuite is the self-canceling apotheosis of Lachenmann's masochistic streak. But in the process, one perceives the alchemical magic of Lachenmann's methods and means: this monumental agon, even as it goes for its jugular, seems to give up a ghost, or send a spirit screaming into the hall to relay a message. And in retrospect the scope of the message -- embracing a musical history (of Haydn, Bach, folk tunes) and a political one (of Hitler and Nazism) -- seems disquietingly well-served through this music, which both smothers a terrible secret and, through its spectacularly fractured surface, lets it bleed through to stain the stage.

        Lest one moralize too much, the Tanzsuite is also a great thrill, at least for the gracious listener: few have as gruesomely effective a sense of timing and (dark) humor as Lachenmann, and absolutely no one writes for the orchestra like him. At its fullest, as in the middle gigue and tarantella, the orchestra creates such a vivid maelstrom of noises as to render the traditional ensemble sound a farce: here, in this clamor as precise and sharp as a bed of nails (and as messy as the back upon it), we hear snatches of a direct presence rare in music, certainly in of recent times.

        The general structure of the work functions much like other Lachenmann scores: the series of dances (waltzes, marches, sicilianos, galops, even a polka) are not forms to be filled but rather fields to be infested. Scratching, blowing, tearing, rubbing, sliding, and all other manner of instrumental mis-use invades and scribbles against the rhythmic profiles of each characteristic dance rhythm; likewise, when the actual German National Anthem does show up, it's barely recognizable amidst the distortions and disfigurings with which Lachenmann has dispersed its bytes throughout the orchestra.

        But whatever titillation the piece offers you, it also manages to threaten that titillation with the sense of a looming specter. German history is written large over any piece after WWII endeavoring to use the German national anthem, and Lachenmann's meticulous brutalization of the music refuses any compromise. Hence the string quartet in front of the orchestra, its nerve-center: the anthem began as a cozy emblem of that genre which the nineteenth century equated with transcendence itself, the innocent slow movement of Haydn's "Emperor" Quartet. That such music found its way into the hands of Nazis who performed it for themselves in the camps is only one bitter irony that glows over this bitter score.
        Or alternatively:

        "Look at the King! Look at the the King! Look at the King, the King, the King!
        The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether
        He's altogether as naked as the day that he was born
        The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether
        It's altogether the very least the King has ever worn"

        It was noisy then quiet , pretentious rubbish of the kind that explains why so much new classical music is completely divorced from all but a tiny audience whose musical understanding and training means they can hear- or perhaps try and hear - what the general public cannot .

        Comment

        • ferneyhoughgeliebte
          Gone fishin'
          • Sep 2011
          • 30163

          #34
          Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
          Or alternatively:

          "Look at the King! Look at the the King! Look at the King, the King, the King!
          The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether
          He's altogether as naked as the day that he was born
          The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether
          It's altogether the very least the King has ever worn"

          It was noisy then quiet , pretentious rubbish of the kind that explains why so much new classical music is completely divorced from all but a tiny audience whose musical understanding and training means they can hear- or perhaps try and hear - what the general public cannot .
          ... and ... ?
          [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

          Comment

          • Arcades Project

            #35
            Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
            Or alternatively:

            "Look at the King! Look at the the King! Look at the King, the King, the King!
            The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether
            He's altogether as naked as the day that he was born
            The King is in the altogether, but altogether, the altogether
            It's altogether the very least the King has ever worn"

            It was noisy then quiet , pretentious rubbish of the kind that explains why so much new classical music is completely divorced from all but a tiny audience whose musical understanding and training means they can hear- or perhaps try and hear - what the general public cannot .
            You don't like something, so it's pretentious rubbish & the Emperor's New Clothes get dragged out for the 9 billionth time? How incredibly arrogant.

            From the responses I've seen elsewhere Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied has produced a fair few reactions of the its rubbish because I say it is type & also fascinated, exhilarated & moved listeners who don't have the kind of "musical training" you refer to. I've loved Lachenmann's music for years & this piece in particular, & I'm not a professional musician. Presumably I'm only pretending because I'm pretentious?

            I like Simon Cummings' review of this wondrous work of musical art http://5against4.com/2013/07/16/prom...d-uk-premiere/

            I also agree with everything edashtav says about Jonathan Nott & the Bamberg Orchestra. A wonderful partnership & superb in Mahler, as in Lachenmann. Perhaps the reason no British orchestra would be interested in him would be they'd expect him to restrict his repertoire in a way he wouldn't accept, for fear of upsetting the ENC-ers. In Germany things are rather different, but then again the Lachenmann festival at the Southbank was pretty much sold out so perhaps they are being over timid. Sadly, perhaps for orchestral concerts it's rather different.

            (I reckon much of what you say about the Lachenmann would have been said by listeners who now adore Mahler's music about Mahler 110 years ago. That it was cacophonous nonsense, vulgar, unmusical, & anyone pretending to care about it or respond to it was merely posing.)

            Comment

            • Barbirollians
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 11791

              #36
              Originally posted by Arcades Project View Post
              You don't like something, so it's pretentious rubbish & the Emperor's New Clothes get dragged out for the 9 billionth time? How incredibly arrogant.

              From the responses I've seen elsewhere Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied has produced a fair few reactions of the its rubbish because I say it is type & also fascinated, exhilarated & moved listeners who don't have the kind of "musical training" you refer to. I've loved Lachenmann's music for years & this piece in particular, & I'm not a professional musician. Presumably I'm only pretending because I'm pretentious?



              I like Simon Cummings' review of this wondrous work of musical art http://5against4.com/2013/07/16/prom...d-uk-premiere/

              I also agree with everything edashtav says about Jonathan Nott & the Bamberg Orchestra. A wonderful partnership & superb in Mahler, as in Lachenmann. Perhaps the reason no British orchestra would be interested in him would be they'd expect him to restrict his repertoire in a way he wouldn't accept, for fear of upsetting the ENC-ers. In Germany things are rather different, but then again the Lachenmann festival at the Southbank was pretty much sold out so perhaps they are being over timid. Sadly, perhaps for orchestral concerts it's rather different.

              (I reckon much of what you say about the Lachenmann would have been said by listeners who now adore Mahler's music about Mahler 110 years ago. That it was cacophonous nonsense, vulgar, unmusical, & anyone pretending to care about it or respond to it was merely posing.)
              You like something - hence it is marvellous - how incredibly arrogant ?
              .
              Your first posting on this board seems to forget that internet forums are about opinion - not personal abuse . I found the piece deeply pretentious and worthless my opinion, yours differs

              Welcome to the boards but I suggest you keep your personal insults to yourself or your time here might end up being short

              Comment

              • Bryn
                Banned
                • Mar 2007
                • 24688

                #37
                And of course, there is no personal insult against Helmut Lachenmann, or those who have the nous to appreciate it, in your rant against the work in question. 'Mote and beam', Rubber Brolly fan.

                Comment

                • Arcades Project

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                  You like something - hence it is marvellous - how incredibly arrogant ?
                  .
                  Your first posting on this board seems to forget that internet forums are about opinion - not personal abuse . I found the piece deeply pretentious and worthless my opinion, yours differs

                  Welcome to the boards but I suggest you keep your personal insults to yourself or your time here might end up being short
                  Thank you for the welcome to the boards.

                  I quite clearly didn't say because I like Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied it's marvelous. Your remarks about the work, however, are unequivocal: you know it's pretentious rubbish & anyone who claims to like or understand it is being taken in by the Emperor's New Clothes or is pretentious or is part of some conspiracy of academic / vested interests who can find or pretend to find something in the music. Proper music lovers know differently. You didn't express an opinion - you stated everything as fact. Glancing through the boards it appears to be a habit of yours: any record reviewer who doesn't agree with your preferences is deeply disappointing or somesuch. You've gone off IRR on that basis.

                  I haven't personally insulted you. You, on the other hand, have threatened me: "or your time here might end up being short." Are you the MBs administrator / owner? If so, ban me. Though the grounds seem to me deeply spurious.

                  Comment

                  • Arcades Project

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                    It was noisy then quiet , pretentious rubbish of the kind that explains why so much new classical music is completely divorced from all but a tiny audience whose musical understanding and training means they can hear- or perhaps try and hear - what the general public cannot .
                    Is not the expression of an opinion, is it? It's a vivid expression of a fact. It doesn't allow for disagreement of any kind: like the comments you find on YouTube, indeed.

                    Comment

                    • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                      Gone fishin'
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 30163

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                      ... internet forums are about opinion - not personal abuse
                      So, when you said that "only a tiny minority hears or tries to hear", that was somehow not "personal[ly] abusive"? You dragged out the ENC cliché previously when talking about Elliot Carter's Music, and then tried to assert that you meant nothing offensive to those of us who love this Music. You really need to consider how you express your opinions, so that you afford to others the respect you (quite rightly) demand for yourself.

                      Oh, and Arcades: Welcome Back! - what've you been up to since the BBC MBs?
                      [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                      Comment

                      • Nick Armstrong
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 26577

                        #41
                        This is presumably exactly what happened one warm late May evening in Paris in 1913....

                        Plus ça change... (well, at least it's only fists beating keyboards now! )
                        "...the isle is full of noises,
                        Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                        Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                        Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                        Comment

                        • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                          Gone fishin'
                          • Sep 2011
                          • 30163

                          #42
                          No cabbages were harmed in the making of these posts.

                          There is one vital difference: the warm May evening in Paris 100 years ago witnessed the premiere of a new work. Monday, 15th July, 2013 offered a performance of a work 33 years old. That some UK listeners regard it as exemplifying "the latest thing" is sad testimony to R3's (lack of) commitment to Contemporary Music.
                          [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                          Comment

                          • Nick Armstrong
                            Host
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 26577

                            #43
                            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                            No cabbages were harmed in the making of these posts.

                            There is one vital difference: the warm May evening in Paris 100 years ago witnessed the premiere of a new work. Monday, 15th July, 2013 offered a performance of a work 33 years old. That some UK listeners regard it as exemplifying "the latest thing" is sad testimony to R3's (lack of) commitment to Contemporary Music.

                            Fair point well made Mr F.
                            "...the isle is full of noises,
                            Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                            Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                            Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                            Comment

                            • edashtav
                              Full Member
                              • Jul 2012
                              • 3673

                              #44
                              The Tide is Turning

                              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                              No cabbages were harmed in the making of these posts.

                              There is one vital difference: the warm May evening in Paris 100 years ago witnessed the premiere of a new work. Monday, 15th July, 2013 offered a performance of a work 33 years old. That some UK listeners regard it as exemplifying "the latest thing" is sad testimony to R3's (lack of) commitment to Contemporary Music.
                              I suspect that R3 / BBC's attitude to contemporary music mirrors its commitment to "balance" in political reporting. "Balance" narrows the range of views, those within standard deviation are fine, those further out are ruled "extreme", i.e. difficult to balance. Given the present dearth of searching thinkers in the hierarchy at R3, its norm has sung towards the "soft" end of contemporary music, leaving those with radical views way out on a limb.

                              But... this Lachenmann episode is having a salutary effect. I feel the tide coming in. See Ivan Hewett's perceptive review in the D.T.

                              Comment

                              • Hornspieler
                                Late Member
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 1847

                                #45
                                I was going to wait for the TV showing tomorrow, but I couldn't wait any longer to see how the solo horn (and his colleagues) were getting on with that high temperature and humidity.

                                SENSATIONAL HORN PLAYING !

                                It's difficult enough at the best of times - a very long blow with no hiding place, but with those conditions in the hall?

                                Well, intonation was perfect. A hot atmosphere encourages all wind instruments to go sharp. I presume, but don't know, that high temperature would tend to expand strings and make them go flat.

                                No evidence of such problems on the night.

                                What's all the fuss about the harp balance? Too often, we see the harpist(e)s performing dexterous miracles and hear practically nothing coming through that forest of string players.

                                A chance to shine - and very much a part of the whole.

                                I await tomorrow's TV with bated, but not too hot, breath.

                                HS
                                Last edited by Hornspieler; 17-07-13, 10:58.

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