Prom 5 - 15.07.13: Bamberg Symphony Orchestra

[cloughie]

I was going to wait for the TV showing tomorrow, but I couldn't wait any longer to see how the solo horn (and his colleagues) were getting on with that high temperature and humidity.

SENSATIONAL HORN PLAYING !

It's difficult enough at the best of times - a very long blow with no hiding place, but with those conditions in the hall?

Well, intonation was perfect. A hot atmosphere encourages all wind instruments to go sharp. I presume, but don't know, that high temperature would tend to expand strings and make them go flat.

No evidence of such problems on the night.

What's all the fuss about the harp balance? Too often, we see the harpist(e)s performing dexterous miracles and hear practically nothing coming through that forest of string players.

A chance to shine - and very much a part of the whole.

I await tomorrow's TV with bated, but not too hot, breath.

HS

I heard the last half of the last movement on my car radio and was struck by how clearly the bass came through. I then caught the rest on iplayer - I agree with you Hsp - harps should been heard as well as seen - I remember Belohlavec's Ma Vlast in the 2011 Proms and the harps were served well by the microphones.

[french frank]

But... this Lachenmann episode is having a salutary effect. I feel the tide coming in. See Ivan Hewett's perceptive review in the D.T.

Which is here. I think he liked it...

[BBMmk2]

WEll, that first piece was utter rubbish! Usually I am not a fan of cointemporary music, and it came about with this prom! Julian Anderson's commission, i did like, but I certainly couldnt make head or tail of this one. (Even though the conductor and orchestra seemd to enjoy it!?!?!?

[LeMartinPecheur]

Well, intonation was perfect. A hot atmosphere encourages all wind instruments to go sharp. I presume, but don't know, that high temperature would tend to expand strings and make them go flat.

No evidence of such problems on the night.

I know nothing practical about the issue (as usual) but seem to recall reading that one of the delights of wind-section tuning is that as the thermometer climbs, the single reeds go one way and the double reeds the other Can any real musician confirm?

[LeMartinPecheur]

I know nothing practical about the issue (as usual) but seem to recall reading that one of the delights of wind-section tuning is that as the thermometer climbs, the single reeds go one way and the double reeds the other Can any real musician confirm?

Ooops, after careful re-examination of memory-banks, I now think this is a Volume not a Temperature effect. As the music gets louder, one mob gets sharper and the other mob gets flatter.

[Still, as an ex-physicist it's very pleasing to recall that Volume, Temperature and Pressure are still closely bound together in one elegant 'gas law', PV = nRT]

[Alison]

Richard Morrison underwhelmed in the Times. Looking forward to catching up with this when repeated.

[Barbirollians]

And of course, there is no personal insult against Helmut Lachenmann, or those who have the nous to appreciate it, in your rant against the work in question. 'Mote and beam', Rubber Brolly fan.

As you are more than well aware - expressing an opinion on a composer's work is not a personal insult - I do not believe it is incredibly arrogant that you or FHGL - like it a great deal or a personal insult that you for example criticise Karajan/s Beethoven .

It is , however, IMO completely out of order to abuse another forum member simply because they dislike or even disdain a piece of music .

If you believe that is an appropriate way to behave on an internet forum I have to differ from you .

[Petrushka]

Richard Morrison underwhelmed in the Times. Looking forward to catching up with this when repeated.

As we are not able to look at this without paying for it any chance if a brief outline of RM's thoughts without breaching copyright? The Mahler wasn't as memorable as the Pittsburgh SO/Honeck account a couple of years ago or the utterly unforgettable VPO/Bernstein of 1987 (I was present at both) but not as dull as Philharmonia/von Dohnanyi in 2005 which I also attended.

[Barbirollians]

So, when you said that "only a tiny minority hears or tries to hear", that was somehow not "personal[ly] abusive"? You dragged out the ENC cliché previously when talking about Elliot Carter's Music, and then tried to assert that you meant nothing offensive to those of us who love this Music. You really need to consider how you express your opinions, so that you afford to others the respect you (quite rightly) demand for yourself.

Oh, and Arcades: Welcome Back! - what've you been up to since the BBC MBs?

Not at all . My point was a simple one - It may well be that those of a particular degree of musical education may be able to hear the structure behind a piece of music that escapes the general listener that may hear only noise . Some others may pretend to hear it because they believe it is the " thing to do " or that to disparage it only displays their ignorance .

The ENC cliche as you describe it is to my ears apt - pieces of music where form and technical ability are lauded when they have nothing to say to many of us .

I would not dream of describing you as terribly arrogant for lauding such a piece of music - If you think it is appropriate to abuse someone for expressing their dislike then I am saddened by that .

[Bryn]

As you are more than well aware - expressing an opinion on a composer's work is not a personal insult - I do not believe it is incredibly arrogant that you or FHGL - like it a great deal or a personal insult that you for example criticise Karajan/s Beethoven .

It is , however, IMO completely out of order to abuse another forum member simply because they dislike or even disdain a piece of music .

If you believe that is an appropriate way to behave on an internet forum I have to differ from you .

I don't find myself considering HvK's Beethoven in the least unmusical. Nor would I suggest that those who prefer his approach to that of Cluytens are deluding themselves, or merely pretending to find it more 'Beethovenian'. HvK was a very fine Honegger conductor indeed. His Beethoven I find less interesting as the years go by. I suggest you go back and re-read your comments on the Lachenmann. Maybe you too might see the different between expressing an opinion and insulting a composer's, and his appreciators', integrity.

[Barbirollians]

I don't find myself considering HvK's Beethoven in the least unmusical. Nor would I suggest that those who prefer his approach to that of Cluytens are deluding themselves, or merely pretending to find it more 'Beethovenian'. HvK was a very fine Honegger conductor indeed. His Beethoven I find less interesting as the years go by. I suggest you go back and re-read your comments on the Lachenmann. Maybe you too might see the different between expressing an opinion and insulting a composer's, and his appreciators', integrity.

I know exactly what I posted - your defence of personal abuse I find disappointing .

[Bryn]

I know exactly what I posted - your defence of personal abuse I find disappointing .

A case of pot and kettle is ever there was one.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The ENC cliche as you describe it is to my ears apt - pieces of music where form and technical ability are lauded when they have nothing to say to many of us.

The Emperor's New Clothes is a story about a couple of con merchants who fool everybody into believing that something is there that actually isn't. In what way this could be an "apt" description of Lachenmann's (or Carter's) Music? In the story, only the innocent child points out the obvious - in what way is that an "apt" description of the reception of Lachenmann's piece? Was there universal approval of it that was swept away by your own single insight?

I would not dream of describing you as terribly arrogant for lauding such a piece of music - If you think it is appropriate to abuse someone for expressing their dislike then I am saddened by that .

In what way is "the respect you (quite rightly) demand for yourself" "abusive"? Cheer up!

[Arcades Project]

As you are more than well aware - expressing an opinion on a composer's work is not a personal insult - I do not believe it is incredibly arrogant that you or FHGL - like it a great deal or a personal insult that you for example criticise Karajan/s Beethoven .

It is , however, IMO completely out of order to abuse another forum member simply because they dislike or even disdain a piece of music .

If you believe that is an appropriate way to behave on an internet forum I have to differ from you .

I didn't abuse you. I said it was arrogant of you to decide that Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied "was noisy then quiet , pretentious rubbish of the kind that explains why so much new classical music is completely divorced from all but a tiny audience whose musical understanding and training means they can hear- or perhaps try and hear - what the general public cannot" because you thought it so.

"The ENC cliche as you describe it is to my ears apt - pieces of music where form and technical ability are lauded when they have nothing to say to many of us ." I see you have now become multitudes .

There is another point, drawn elsewhere on this thread. This level of eructation is provoked by a work written 33 years ago & well-known er inside certain circles I suppose or perhaps outside others. I belong to For3. One of For3's stated aims is to increase the coverage of contemporary as of now music on Radio 3, a coverage which has dwindled steadily. The expressions of outrage found on this thread - never expressed as opinion, but as self-evident truth - wouldn't exactly prod the BBC into adopting a - why not? - less populist line. I've no idea if you do belong to For3. This is, of course, an open message board & has a disclaimer about its views not being those of For3. Still, I doubt the BBC is above reading messages of outrage at a performance of a 33 year old work & rubbing its hands together gleefully while having its cake & eating it. 'What a bunch of reactionaries & great lets broadcast even less of the stuff & even more mainstream material.' I think it's a pity For3 should suffer such a misrepresentation (unless the aims have changed since I joined years ago).

However I'm glad expressing disdain for a piece of music is OK. I'll put together something especially ripe on Elgar's Cello Concerto & I'm sure you'll smile & say 'it's a point of view'. (I don't mean I'll say I'll dislike it. I'll lay into it with your rhetorical vigour).

Up & down, ferney, as things tend to go. Thanks .

[Barbirollians]

Your post is profoundly condescending in my opinion . As I am someone who self-evidently does not have your level of appreciation for contemporary music that entitles you to be personally offensive. It is your attitude and that of Bryn above which in fact enables Radio 3 to label those who are concerned about its dumbing down as elitist .

Your post about Lachenmann's music was far more a promulgation of a self-evident truth than my own . I am beginning to suspect that the vitriol directed at me on this thread is indicative that my criticism has hit home