Prom 5 - 15.07.13: Bamberg Symphony Orchestra

[Barbirollians]

It wasn't the word "blink" that came to mind but "plink," as in "Plink, Plank, Plunk," though there at least Leroy Anderson did at least provide us with a decent tune :)

The Lachenmann was drivel to my ears - 20 minutes was too much.

Enjoyed their Mahler 5 but not quite as much as the Mahler 4 they gave us some years back.

[edashtav]

Nott's Mahler was superb until the fourth movement, where the sound engineers did him or the Bamberg Symphony Orchestra no favours by miking the harp too closely, completely throwing the balance out of the adagietto. What a shame.

Still, I've been raving about Nott's Mahler for a while now with this orchestra - no surprises about what an exhilarating combination this conductor/orchestra make in these works. I expect their CDs will receive a sales boost on the back of this performance.

First Prom I regret not buying tickets for.

Let's deal with your valid point about the adagietto: don't shoot the messengers (BBC engineers) but praise the live conductor: Jonathan Nott. I was live, too, in the RAH and I can assure you that JN achieved that orchestral rarity: a whole string band playing ppp in this movement. Yes, the harp , outnumbered maybe 40+ to 1, won! That was a rare miscalculation: Nott's ability to balance an orchestra in real time is simply outstanding, second to none, I think.

I'm not a Mahlerian , I was present because Nott won his spurs from me with his glorious conducting of Bruckner's third a couple of Prom seasons ago. I have to admit that I've never enjoyed a Mahler symphony as much as last night's performance. You can rely on Nott & I can relax with him. He has won not only his orchestra's trust but mine, too. His music-making is so organic: he lets the phrases and paragraphs breathe. Nothing is forced, movements grow, flow, and, sometimes wither and die away. Nott didn't get in the way of the score, he wasn't a driven prima donna, never once did I feel that this was "Nott's" Mahler. No, it was Mahler, the born lyricist, revealed through the masterful insights of young Nott. I do a lot of singing and conducting. One of music's great charms occurs when you and your group are breathing and singing as one: blood pressure falls and one achieves , maybe momentarily, a state of karma. The virtue of Nott and his Bamberg band is that they are as one so often, they have surrendered "self" for the greater "whole". The unity of purpose and belief shone constantly through an hour and a quarter. This was outstanding music-making of rare quality and it cost me only £15 ( try matching that in Lucerne or another great music festivals!)

I see other discriminating For 3 bloggers warm to Nott, too, and the BBC has backed him at the Proms - why has no British orchestra signed him on a long term contract? I note that he'll spend time in Tokyo over the next few years. That's great for the Japanese, but terrible for Britain. We have a number of good, young conductors but none, in my estimation in Nott's league. He's not even a name to most of our public: the Albert Hall was scarcely half full last evening. Those who know Nott, back him. I was astonished at the high proportion of German-speakers in last night's audience (some of them, no doubt, Bambergers).

Of course every cloud has a silver lining. I was expecting the great British, sweaty Bake-Off at the RAH, but empty seats generate no warmth, so overall, I felt cooler and fresher than in some concerts during last year's "no summer" season.

Was it "hot & cold" , the combination of "the heat" and "the cold" of Helmut Lachenmann that kept the Brits at bay? One reason for my attendance was curiosity to hear his music non-concrete. I was in a minority. When I told a neighbour that I might leave at the interval if I was too hot, he emitted a look that incorporated deep sympathy with "OMG, he's an avant-garde nutter". I suppose I am the latter - I want to try everything, once. Lachenmann has an astonishing ear and a parallel ability to synthesise sound through orchestration. At the start the wonderfully amplified Arditti made sounds analogous to some masonry bees busy masticating the mortar of my home. Some nearby Mahlerians were discombobulated - I felt like yelling,"Titter ye not.", but would my reaction have been worse than their action? Fortunately, Helmut's twitter machine soon lulled his enemies into deep slumber from which they emerged, refreshed and topped up with loads of British reserve to clap long and wetly at the work's end. I have to admit that I found 35 minutes of Lachenmann's Tanzsuite a difficult and tiring listen. The surface patina was alluring, even bewitching, but I struggled to find structure, direction and shape. Once again, Nott was in his element and he looked completely on top of the score. Helmut Lachenmann is an eminence grise with an unworldly presence (perhaps he'd jetted in in Dr Who's telephone box), but he knows how to milk an audience: if the applause is wilting, shake every hand you can reach across the orchestra.
Well done Nott, well done Lachenmann, three cheers for the Beeb's bravery... and many thanks to the blessed British sleepers!

[amateur51]

Let's deal with your valid point about the adagietto: don't shoot the messengers (BBC engineers) but praise the live conductor: Jonathan Nott. I was live, too, in the RAH and I can assure you that JN achieved that orchestral rarity: a whole string band playing ppp in this movement. Yes, the harp , outnumbered maybe 40+ to 1, won! That was a rare miscalculation: Nott's ability to balance an orchestra in real time is simply outstanding, second to none, I think.

I'm not a Mahlerian , I was present because Nott won his spurs from me with his glorious conducting of Bruckner's third a couple of Prom seasons ago. I have to admit that I've never enjoyed a Mahler symphony as much as last night's performance. You can rely on Nott & I can relax with him. He has won not only his orchestra's trust but mine, too. His music-making is so organic: he let's the phrases and paragraphs breathe. Nothing is forced, movements grow, flow, and, sometimes wither and die away. Nott didn't get in the way of the score, he wasn't a driven prima donna, never once did I feel that this was "Nott's" Mahler. No, it was Mahler, the born lyricist, revealed through the masterful insights of young Nott. I do a lot of singing and conducting. One of music's great charms occurs when you and your group are breathing and singing as one: blood pressure falls and one achieves , maybe momentarily, a state of karma. The virtue of Nott and his Bamberg band is that they are as one so often, they have surrendered "self" for the greater "whole". The unity of purpose and belief shone constantly through an hour and a quarter. This was outstanding music-making of rare quality and it cost me only £15 ( try matching that in Lucerne or another great music festivals!)

I see other discriminating For 3 bloggers warm to Nott, too, and the BBC has backed him at the Proms - why has no British orchestra signed him on a long term contract? I note that he'll spend time in Tokyo over the next few years. That's great for the Japanese, but terrible for Britain. We have a number of god, young conductors but none, in my estimation in Nott's league. He's not even a name to most of our public: the Albert Hall was scarcely half full last evening. Those who know Nott, back him. I was astonished at the high proportion of German-speakers in last night's audience (some of them, no doubt, Bambergers).

Of course every cloud has a silver lining. I was expecting the great British, sweaty Bake-Off at the RAH, but empty seats generate no warmth, so overall, I felt cooler and fresher than in some concerts during last year's "no summer" season.

Was it "hot & cold" , the combination of "the heat" and "the cold" of Helmut Lachenmann that kept the Brits at bay? One reason for my attendance was curiosity to hear his music non-concrete. I was in a minority. When I told a neighbour that I might leave at the interval if I was too hot, he emitted a look that incorporated deep sympathy with "OMG, he an avant-garde nutter". I suppose I am the latter - I want to try everything, once. Lachenmann has an astonishing ear and a parallel ability to synthesise sound through orchestration. At the start the wonderfully amplified Arditti made sounds analogous to some masonry bees busy masticating the mortar of my home. Some nearby Mahlerians were discombobulated - I felt like yelling,"Titter ye not.", but would my reaction have been worse than their action? Fortunately, Helmut's twitter machine soon lulled his enemies into deep slumber from which they emerged, refreshed and topped up with loads of British reserve to clap long and wetly at the work's end. I have to admit that I found 35 minutes of Lachenmann's Tanzsuite a difficult and tiring listen. The surface patina was alluring, even bewitching, but I struggled to find structure, direction and shape. Once again, Nott was in his element and he looked completely on top of the score. Helmut Lachenmann is an eminence grise with an unworldly presence (perhaps he'd jetted in in Dr Who's telephone box), but he knows how to milk an audience: if the applause is wilting, shake every hand you can reach across the orchestra.
Well done Nott, well done Lachemann, three cheers for the Beeb's bravery... and many thanks to the blessed British sleepers!

A lovely literate review edashtav and full of insights too - many thanks. I'm already a Prom down - I'll certainly catch up with this one on the basis of your review.

[Nick Armstrong]

the Albert Hall was scarcely half full last evening.

A most thoughtful and expressive post, ed ! Thank you, a great read.

The quoted line above is very surprising... I was very tempted to go, but didn't Partly because I was there the night before, the heat, etc etc... I feel guilty now. Especially as it sounded so good. I've recorded it and heard the scherzo 2 or 3 times (the start of that movement marked a little dip in form, it seemed to me, with a counting blooper by the soloist - the brass were probably rather hot and a bit knackered by then - and, live, it must have been swept into oblivion by all the positive aspects of the performance you describe).

Again, good to have a chance to see this when it comes up on BBC4 at the weekend (albeit minus the first half ).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have to admit that I found 35 minutes of Lachenmann's Tanzsuite a difficult and tiring listen. The surface patina was alluring, even bewitching, but I struggled to find structure, direction and shape.

An honest and fair reaction to a first hearing: some others here have been as honest, but not nearly so fair. I've only heard the work a couple of times, and what seems to be emerging is a series of "movements" into and out of regular pulsed sections (the "dances" of the title) melding between playful and the aggressive moods.

There is an opening call to attention (a "Hwaet!", if you like) and the opening few minutes pull fragments together from silence (pairings of pizzicato pitches - which gradually start to pull together phrases from Haydn's melody - and scraping sul pont sounds). Rhythmic and melodic ideas emerge from textures continually during the course of the piece, each section dominated by a different dance rhythm (often reduced to a basic dance pulse): I identified a Minuet, a Landler and a Tarentella - with individual sustained pitches from the Haydn melody acting as an enormous cantus firmus (some much more easily identifiable - the string harmonics "chorale"-like presentation five minutes from the end most obvious: not really a chorale - more a simultaneous presentation of the melody at different speeds).

Macmillan's Veni, Veni Emmanuel does something similar, but the melodic material there is made so obvious that it doesn't really "do" much else. Lachenmann here is much more subtle - the tone constantly shifting from the playfully sardonic (the "laughter-man"?) and the furious (the "vigorous courage") - so that more reveals itself with each listening, as in the very best works of Art: an arresting immediacy, underpinned by darker, deeper forces holding it all together - forces that make their impact more gradually but with even greater long-term impact.

Superb coupling for Mahler - once again, a visiting German orchestra brings the best of New Music to the Proms, wiping out the effete, anaemic offerings from the home orchestras. Best Prom of the Season.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And an alternative response to the work from Seth Brodsky:

A vicious anti-masterwork, nationalistic and anarchist at once, caught between attacking great art and being great art, Lachenmann's nearly 40-minute Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied from 1980 is a problem-piece. Everything it does it also counters: it structures and then defaces old dances; it sets and then obliterates old tunes; it fashions wildly bewildering climaxes and then pulverizes them to a formal dust which extends far beyond reasonable frames. In this sense the Tanzsuite is the self-canceling apotheosis of Lachenmann's masochistic streak. But in the process, one perceives the alchemical magic of Lachenmann's methods and means: this monumental agon, even as it goes for its jugular, seems to give up a ghost, or send a spirit screaming into the hall to relay a message. And in retrospect the scope of the message -- embracing a musical history (of Haydn, Bach, folk tunes) and a political one (of Hitler and Nazism) -- seems disquietingly well-served through this music, which both smothers a terrible secret and, through its spectacularly fractured surface, lets it bleed through to stain the stage.

Lest one moralize too much, the Tanzsuite is also a great thrill, at least for the gracious listener: few have as gruesomely effective a sense of timing and (dark) humor as Lachenmann, and absolutely no one writes for the orchestra like him. At its fullest, as in the middle gigue and tarantella, the orchestra creates such a vivid maelstrom of noises as to render the traditional ensemble sound a farce: here, in this clamor as precise and sharp as a bed of nails (and as messy as the back upon it), we hear snatches of a direct presence rare in music, certainly in of recent times.

The general structure of the work functions much like other Lachenmann scores: the series of dances (waltzes, marches, sicilianos, galops, even a polka) are not forms to be filled but rather fields to be infested. Scratching, blowing, tearing, rubbing, sliding, and all other manner of instrumental mis-use invades and scribbles against the rhythmic profiles of each characteristic dance rhythm; likewise, when the actual German National Anthem does show up, it's barely recognizable amidst the distortions and disfigurings with which Lachenmann has dispersed its bytes throughout the orchestra.

But whatever titillation the piece offers you, it also manages to threaten that titillation with the sense of a looming specter. German history is written large over any piece after WWII endeavoring to use the German national anthem, and Lachenmann's meticulous brutalization of the music refuses any compromise. Hence the string quartet in front of the orchestra, its nerve-center: the anthem began as a cozy emblem of that genre which the nineteenth century equated with transcendence itself, the innocent slow movement of Haydn's "Emperor" Quartet. That such music found its way into the hands of Nazis who performed it for themselves in the camps is only one bitter irony that glows over this bitter score.

[Hitch]

I tuned in just after the Lachenmann finished. Mea culpa.

For many a year, Mahler has been something of a looming iceberg on my musical seascape. I'm finally getting a good look at him without scraping my paintwork, and last night's Prom helped in that regard. I enjoyed the 5th more than I ever have before, and am pleased to find out that others thought the performance a fine one, over-amplified adagietto or not. The interval talk, Mahler in Words, was a model introduction to the composer and the imminent concert. It was a special treat to hear Mahler's piano roll of the opening of the 5th. I could almost see him, pince-nez flashing in the Viennese sunlight.

[Nick Armstrong]

For many a year, Mahler has been something of a looming iceberg on my musical seascape. I'm finally getting a good look at him without scraping my paintwork, and last night's Prom helped in that regard. I enjoyed the 5th more than I ever have before, and am pleased to find out that others thought the performance a fine one, over-amplified adagietto or not. The interval talk, Mahler in Words, was a model introduction to the composer and the imminent concert. It was a special treat to hear Mahler's piano roll of the opening of the 5th. I could almost see him, pince-nez flashing in the Viennese sunlight.

Enjoyed that para a lot, H

Keep 'em coming !

[Daniel]

It wasn't the word "blink" that came to mind but "plink," as in "Plink, Plank, Plunk," though there at least Leroy Anderson did at least provide us with a decent tune :)

Is it not possible to approach it like an alien language, knowing that it makes sense to someone, and by listening gradually a picture may emerge of what it's saying? To me it doesn't speak the same language as Bach, Beethoven or Debussy (or only very distantly) and shouldn't be listened to like it does - that would be like trying to make sense of a language, with a grammar that it doesn't use. What I like about new music is that it adds to what is possible. It really is 'new' music and it really does expand horizons, mine at least anyway. Even though I don't listen to a great deal of new music and there are many times when I don't respond to it, the times I do respond are incredibly rewarding.

Thanks to edashtav, I didn't hear a structure clearly either, and thank you, ferneyhoughgeliebte, for those really interesting insights, I will listen again with them in mind. Coincidentally, it may also explain why I have never yet found Macmillan very exciting despite sometimes being initially attracted to it.

[edashtav]

An honest and fair reaction to a first hearing: some others here have been as honest, but not nearly so fair. I've only heard the work a couple of times, and what seems to be emerging is a series of "movements" into and out of regular pulsed sections (the "dances" of the title) melding between playful and the aggressive moods.

There is an opening call to attention (a "Hwaet!", if you like) and the opening few minutes pull fragments together from silence (pairings of pizzicato pitches - which gradually start to pull together phrases from Haydn's melody - and scraping sul pont sounds). Rhythmic and melodic ideas emerge from textures continually during the course of the piece, each section dominated by a different dance rhythm (often reduced to a basic dance pulse): I identified a Minuet, a Landler and a Tarentella - with individual sustained pitches from the Haydn melody acting as an enormous cantus firmus (some much more easily identifiable - the string harmonics "chorale"-like presentation five minutes from the end most obvious: not really a chorale - more a simultaneous presentation of the melody at different speeds).

Macmillan's Veni, Veni Emmanuel does something similar, but the melodic material there is made so obvious that it doesn't really "do" much else. Lachenmann here is much more subtle - the tone constantly shifting from the playfully sardonic (the "laughter-man"?) and the furious (the "vigorous courage") - so that more reveals itself with each listening, as in the very best works of Art: an arresting immediacy, underpinned by darker, deeper forces holding it all together - forces that make their impact more gradually but with even greater long-term impact.

Superb coupling for Mahler - once again, a visiting German orchestra brings the best of New Music to the Proms, wiping out the effete, anaemic offerings from the home orchestras. Best Prom of the Season.

Your analysis is very helpful at an intellectual level although I fear I shall struggle for a while, yet, to hear some of the underpinning, in real-time. No matter: no gristle, no meat & no grist, no bread!

Correct: the best Prom so far, and, I suggest, the best for some time to come ( I'm Wagner averse and shall pipe down pretty soon.)

[mercia]

please, how much of the Bamberg SO was onstage for the Lachenmann ? - I wasn't particularly aware of anything being blown (for instance)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

please, how much of the Bamber SO was onstage for the Lachenmann ? - I wasn't particularly aware of anything being blown (for instance)

The score calls for a fairly standard "Symphony Orchestra": triple winds (but with 4 flutes); 4 Horns, 3 Trumpets, 3 Trombones & Tuba; 4 percussionists, Harp, Piano; Strings.

The brass were easiest to hear: staccato chords with a single note sustained by Bass Trombone or Tuba. Woodwinds less easily identifiable - individual notes pepper the score, and Lachenmann often blends string harmonics with wind sounds. He also frequently requires players to blow pitchlessly into their instruments, different timbres produced by the different materials and sizes of the instruments: this way he is able to transfer traditional roles - unpitched percussion producing "tunes", traditionally melodic instruments used as percussion.

[mercia]

thanks fhg - I shall try very hard to listen again

[jayne lee wilson]

During the live webcast of Lachenmann's Tanzsuite, a headache dragged me asleep; I awoke to find the orchestra going gleefully crazy, a wonderful catatonic counterpoint! I giggled with delight - how had we got here, was this a climax? Haydn was hinted at; the piece petered out and stopped.

On a second hearing, isolated sounds assembled their energies into bareboned, cartoonish rhythms; glimpses of dance, figure and sequence; silence again. I was amused at my own instinctive attempts to find line and shape - was this next episode a proto- or post-Webernian orchestral piece, overlaid with its own deconstruction? It dissolved again. Before I saw it coming, here was that climax - cumulations of disparate dance-energies taking me dizzily with them, I laughed aloud several times, this climax, or literal anti-climax, was then - peremptorily dismissed. Another rhythmic accumulation, another dissolve... the Haydn; then the piece was over.

But I want to hear it again - to find that childish laughter, that delight in discovery, in sheer sound, in myself again.

***

It is scarcely a surprise that some are stunned into instant, outright rejection; it fails to be what they desire - as music, as "concert". They can't find a way into its embrace.

[Petrushka]

I was in the hall for this and really cannot say anything that edashtav hasn't already said in one of the best reviews I've seen on here .

Yes, the Lachenmann was a difficult listen but here's the thing - there was less audience coughing in this than there was in the Mahler. I was in M stalls on the opposite side to the harp so wasn't particularly aware of it sounding too prominent in the Adagietto. The brass were terrific, especially the trumpets, in what must have been a long, sweltering evening for them. I've had hotter evenings in the hall but not many.

Incidentally, TV cameras did record the Lachenmann so we may see it some time if not on the TV broadcast on Thursday.