Prom 4 - 14.07.13: Les Siècles – The Rite of Spring

[Sir Velo]

...and I always thought that was the Bognor Regis Symphony Orchestra.

British Rail SO surely?

[Quilisma]

I'm fascinated to read what Waldhorn says about horn (and more generally brass) vibrato, as this coincides precisely with what I had gleaned over the past couple of years: namely, that the allegedly characteristic "French vibrato" was in fact a fairly short-lived phenomenon very much associated with a few specific players in Paris, who came to prominence in the 1930s and dominated in the 1940s and 1950s, but that that style of playing gradually went out of fashion as the 1960s progressed. Also, around 1970 French horn players started moving over from the narrow-bore French-design piston-valve instrument to the medium-bore or wide-bore German-design rotary-valve instrument, thereby joining the global mainstream (in which the only remaining exception is Vienna with its somewhat arcane "third option"). British orchestras had shifted from narrow-bore French-design piston-valve horns to medium-bore or wide-bore German-design rotary-valve instruments a few decades before, roughly between 1930 and 1950, principally because the rotary-valve horns offered greater security and a larger sound before edginess kicks in. (At the beginning of the twentieth century German horn designers had devised a "double horn" in F and B flat, but an equivalent was not introduced for French-style instruments until they were already obsolescent.) But vibrato or no vibrato, it's always worth remembering that, as a legacy of the narrow-bore piston-valve single horn in F, the traditional French conception of horn sound is more focussed, direct and ringing than we hear from some players around the world, without a hint of woofiness, and that this could also be said for the British school of playing at least until the late twentieth century. I suppose the opposite would be the super-wide bouncy castle of plush-mush surround sofa-sound one sometimes hears from unidentified places...

"French vibrato" isn't the only type, though, and as Stravinsky was Russian I should mention "Russian vibrato". If The Rite of Spring had been premièred not in Paris as Le Sacre du printemps but in St Petersburg as Весна священная, how differently would it have sounded? I think I'm right in saying that Russian players used mostly German-style instruments, but again that may not be right. However, Russia is again famous for brass vibrato. I'd love to know when this tradition developed. Was it already the norm by 1913? I have read that it developed earlier than "French vibrato", in which case it may have been one of the influences that produced "French vibrato" (the more celebrated one being jazz). There is a parallel tradition of a "lyrical" vibrato emanating from Prague and certain other places in central Europe (also to be heard in some German orchestras), and this may have fed into the Russian playing style, but also within Russia there are two contrasting traditions: the relatively moderate vibrato of St Petersburg/Petrograd/Leningrad and the positively extreme operatic wobble of Moscow. The latter seems to have been tamed somewhat during Khrushchev's era, but to the world at large Russian brass (especially horns) implies prominent vibrato. Actually, most Russian players "internationalised" their style of playing at least as long ago as the end of the Soviet Union, leaving barely a hint of vibrato and only for soloistic purposes. But when did vibrato BEGIN in Russian playing? Was it always there? Or was it a Soviet-era phenomenon peaking mid-century? As he was composing, what sounds would Stravinsky have expected to hear if he had heard a Russian orchestra playing The Rite of Spring? The questions keep multiplying!

[Nick Armstrong]

I enjoyed it all too - it was a wonderful experiment and as such it was a great success I feel.... To hear it played with such vivid instrumentation and with such air around the music was a revelation.

That is exactly how it came across in the Hall The clarity and impact and texture of the sound added a wonderful layer of pleasure to this exhilarating reading - the precision of the percussion instruments (mesmerising watching the percussion team at work - as someone else has said, a petite lady giving the bass drum her all, a youthful 'junior' running around assisting with damping the gong, tuning the timps, making the tea... )... and the rich, seductive sound of the various brass and winds - ripe and multi-textured like roquefort cheese (always best when there's plenty of 'air around'!).

Sitting up close at the side, the whole thing was absolutely involving and frequently overwhelming from start to finish... and from that postition, the acoustic added greatly to the effect - the sound filled the hall, impactful chords hit home but had extra force from the space they filled (those pauses really worked in the Hall - an extra few seconds to savour the taste, like the last chord of all: huge yet all the layers perceptible).

Interesting how various instruments differ from today in terms of volume but some don't - the bass clarinets were just as punchy as modern instruments, whereas the alto flute seemed softer, an ethereal sound... and the French horns were softer, not bright - and all 9 (or was it 7? can't remember) were needed for the 'big bits', bells often held aloft

First half was fun - yes, the Lully baton taps probably worked better with the visuals as well (it occurred to me it might be annoying on the radio)... The orchestral blend in the Rameau was a treat. Most enjoyable was probably the Délibes, done with terrific swagger and fun. The Massenet came across mostly as banal music - and only served to accentuate the riotous, revolutionary impact of Le Sacre.

Knock-out Prom

[HighlandDougie]

Also getting a bit irritated by her version the conductor's name - François-Xavier Wrote.

Heaven forbid that I should leap to the defence of Ms Mohr-Pech on a minor point but F-X R est un français et en France, "Roth" is pronounced as near as dammit as "Wrote"

[ardcarp]

As someone involved with [much] less exalted orchestral affairs, it is a source of wonder how one can justify a concert financially when it uses modest forces in the first half and legions in the second. If we push the boat out and hire extra brass/percussion/a harp, etc, etc for one particular piece, then we make bloody sure we get our money's worth by using them for the rest of the programme!

[Nick Armstrong]

Heaven forbid that I should leap to the defence of Ms Mohr-Pech on a minor point but F-X R est un français et en France, "Roth" is pronounced as near as dammit as "Wrote"

More like 'Rot', no?... which is presumably what she was trying to avoid. I tested the patience of the company last night with some 'Noble Rot'/'the Rot sets in' quips...

Couldn't get my coat - far too warm, I'd left it at home...

[Nick Armstrong]

a harp

Funnily enough, that was only used in the first half. I hadn't twigged that there were no harps in Rite of Spring

[amateur51]

Yes I got quite excited about a new BSO concert post - alas it was Boston,I think ;)

Boston it certainly was, something to get excited about indeed

[Flosshilde]

British Rail SO surely?

Since privatisation the different sections have been split off as separate franchises, making it very difficult to coordinate them, even by the best conductors. Booking tickets for a concert is now very complicated - each section issuing its own tickets. If you book a ticket for the whole concert it can be extremely expensive, but if you book for each item in the programme seperately it can be much cheaper.

If one section arrives late there is no compensation if it disrupts connections with other sections. The conductor will deny all responsibility.

[Hornspieler]

Quilisma:

Your message #62 is an excellent post and I think it worthy of more development than is appropriate to this discussion. So I have started a new thread about the present day orchestral horn(s) on the "Talking About Music" forum, to discuss its content and the messages by Laurie Watt and walhorn which preceded it.

HS

[Nick Armstrong]

will there be lots of encores?

Please let me know if there is a serpent amongst their plethora of instrumentation

Neither encores nor serpents, mangey

Didn't miss them, though

We had an impressive ophicleide played, apparently, by a gentleman named Sylvain

https://twitter.com/BBCRadio3/status/356460837717819392/photo/1

and the amusing Turkish Crescent aka Chapeau Chinois aka Jingling Johnny

https://twitter.com/SaraMohrPietsch/status/356415214104760320/photo/1

Those maroon tassles flew around when it was deployed and made one smile

[Flosshilde]

We had an impressive ophicleide played, apparently, by a gentleman named Sylvain

https://twitter.com/BBCRadio3/status...819392/photo/1

He looks very pleased with it

[Nick Armstrong]

He looks very pleased with it

I'm sure you would be too! I know I would!

[mangerton]

Neither encores nor serpents, mangey

Didn't miss them, though

We had an impressive ophicleide played, apparently, by a gentleman named Sylvain

https://twitter.com/BBCRadio3/status/356460837717819392/photo/1

and the amusing Turkish Crescent aka Chapeau Chinois aka Jingling Johnny

https://twitter.com/SaraMohrPietsch/status/356415214104760320/photo/1

Those maroon tassles flew around when it was deployed and made one smile

Thanks for the info, Caliban. The Awfuclyde, as it has been called, looks a jolly instrument. I enjoyed the concert last night, and I'll make a point of watching next Sunday.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well,jlw, did you bite the bullet and re Rite your music listening history. If yes, did you enjoy the experience or do you now need counselling?

Well, I listened to it - but no grand rapprochement I'm afraid; I don't think the piece ever recovered from my obsession with that Columbia LP from the local record library...

This reconstructive presentation succeeded wonderfully on its own terms - and more, given the terrific rhythmic discipline in the Danse Sacrale and elsewhere.
Again, some finely-played and expressive wind solos - but I still felt the performance emphasised huge percussive impact and brilliantly refreshed colours, at the expense of characterisation and dramatic continuity - the inner tension of the piece was allowed to drop a little during quieter passages, though this was better in Part 2, after a very atmospheric introduction. Those exaggerated pauses only underlined these impressions - more a Concerto for Orchestra than a narrative of savage ritual. But at this museological stage in the history of the work, it's hard to see many other ways of restoring some wildness and vitality to it. Its physical impact via HDs was almost overpowering.

As I implied earlier, from a purely musical point of view, Part One was rather over-ambitious; it might have been more satisfying with longer selections from just two composers - Rameau and Massenet, perhaps.
But this was a Prom and I can see why the performers wanted to showcase their researches and have a little fun. All the same, if they've played this programme three or four times previously, I'm disappointed that they couldn't have found more character and energy in the too-brief Rameau and Lully selections. If you've listened to Bruggen's, Christie's or Minkowski's recordings as enthusiastically as I have, I'm sure you'll know what I mean!