Proms 2013 - the Verdict.

[EdgeleyRob]

Slava.
The one thing that I would say about the proms today, and I respect the many years experience that you clearly have, is that its quite unusual in my opinion to find, in the concert hall, the sense of occasion, the excitement and the great audience mix that you still get in the arena .
The proms may (does) have many faults, but it still seems like a beacon of hope , in a world of too much cultural desert.
And if you are lucky enough to be able to get there, you can see some of the world's finest for £5.
It's greatest days may be behind it, but the festival really is still important.

My imperfect thoughts are posted out of enthusiasm.

Like that post ts.
Although the Proms aren't what they used to be I am still desperate to get to one,maybe next year.

[DublinJimbo]

It's [sic] greatest days may be behind it, but the festival really is still important.

Like that post ts.
Although the Proms aren't what they used to be I am still desperate to get to one, maybe next year.

Each year, I get increasingly annoyed by the jingoistic references to "the greatest music festival in the world" and all the rest of that gush. The last remaining "greatness" of the Proms is the astonishing extent of the programme. Cut a couple of weeks off and concentrate on quality, and perhaps the Proms might regain their position on the musical high ground. For me, the absolute nadir (and an indication of the direction in which those in control wish things to go) was the execrable Comedy Prom with Tim Minchin in 2011. After that, it will take several years before full credibility can be reclaimed.

[Hornspieler]

Each year, I get increasingly annoyed by the jingoistic references to "the greatest music festival in the world" and all the rest of that gush. The last remaining "greatness" of the Proms is the astonishing extent of the programme. Cut a couple of weeks off and concentrate on quality, and perhaps the Proms might regain their position on the musical high ground. For me, the absolute nadir (and an indication of the direction in which those in control wish things to go) was the execrable Comedy Prom with Tim Minchin in 2011. After that, it will take several years before full credibility can be reclaimed.

Hear, hear!

[ahinton]

They make two sell-out concerts. I imagine that's the reason.

Nothing wrong with that of course - but mightn't they have done so in any case had they been mounted separately from, rather than as part of, the Proms season?

[ahinton]

Each year, I get increasingly annoyed by the jingoistic references to "the greatest music festival in the world" and all the rest of that gush. The last remaining "greatness" of the Proms is the astonishing extent of the programme. Cut a couple of weeks off and concentrate on quality, and perhaps the Proms might regain their position on the musical high ground. For me, the absolute nadir (and an indication of the direction in which those in control wish things to go) was the execrable Comedy Prom with Tim Minchin in 2011. After that, it will take several years before full credibility can be reclaimed.

Hear, hear from me, too. The jingoistic element of the gush that you mention seems particularly absurd when jingoism is usually dependent upon a perceived need for some kind of expression of nationalist sentiment and, whilst the Proms does embrace British music, the inclusion of it in each season is not disproportionate and the specialist promotion of British music is not in any case part of the remit of the Proms. The puerile attemtps to appeal to "the masses" (whoever they may or may not be) in the hope of getting as many bums on seats as possible seem to sit ever more unconfortably side by side with the Barenboim Ring cycle and other events of major significance which hardly played to half-empty houses; the parallel between the trendy populist Prom and the obsession in certain R3 programmes with tweets, emails, phone calls and the like occasonally interrupted by bleeding chunks of something that I understand is called music seems all too painfully obvious, at least to me - but then what do I know? given that I'm merely one of those exceptional weirdos that got forcibly dragged into music just before my 'teens by music itself, whose power should never be underestimated, let alone undermined as some of these things risk doing.

[Resurrection Man]

I always look forward to the publishing of the Proms programme to see what concerts will drag me all the way down from the sticks and it has to be exceptional to do that. Last year for me there was the weekend of The Apostles, Berlioz and Gurrelieder and the bonus of the NYJO. Brilliant weekend.

This year I found little to tempt me and the one concert that I did go down to (Mahler 2) was a real let-down. There were a couple of concerts that I caught on iPlayer that in retrospect would like to have attended. Billy Budd springs to mind. That covers actual attendance.

If I then turn to the number of concerts that I actually listened to on the radio live or even of an afternoon repeat then it is quite revealing as the answer is 'very few'. I turned off all the Ring performances as I thought them well under-par.

Too much light fluffy stuff as already commented on by others.

Underwhelmed is my overall verdict.

Be much better acoustically if they put some seats in the arena.

[David Underdown]

Others have already pointed out that there are far more Proms than there ever used to be, so things like the Doctor Who Prom (and John Wilson Orchestram, Urban Prom etc) cannot really be said to be replacing traditional concerts. People still keep saying that Doctor Who took up two evening though, it didn't, there was a Saturday evening Prom and a late morning Sunday Prom - the Sunday evening was Les Siecles doing French dance music. Look at the early days of the Proms, the seond half of each concert was alrgely popeular ballads, cornet solos and the like. There's quite a good case that the period from the 60s throug to the mid-80s was the exception rather than the rule when you look at the entire 100+ years history of the Proms.

I would be concerned if the proportion of other types of concert went up too much more, but at the moment I think these events do have a place. Others have said the first directly repeated Prom was 2004, in fact it was 1998, though it was a Blue Peter Prom, see http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/search/1990s/1998 Sunday 6 September at 3:00pm and Monday 7 September at 2:30pm (the second was actually aimed at school groups as I recall). It's not labelled as a Blue Peter Prom in the archive, but the give away is that the concerts start with Barnacle Bil 9aka the Blue Peter theme).

Of course, many early seasons contained significant amounts of repeats of music across the season as a whole (due to the limited rehearsal time), but not wholesale repeats of programmes I believe.

[ardcarp]

That is a very informed and sensible post, David. I have not read everything on this thread, but given, as you say, the large number of Prom concerts squeezed into the season nowadays, I see no reason to complain about a few off-the-wall events. Indeed I applaud any attempt to foster concert-going in a young audience, whether it be via Dr Who, Nigel Kennedy, or whoever.

[Nick Armstrong]

That is a very informed and sensible post, David. I have not read everything on this thread, but given, as you say, the large number of Prom concerts squeezed into the season nowadays, I see no reason to complain about a few off-the-wall events. Indeed I applaud any attempt to foster concert-going in a young audience, whether it be via Dr Who, Nigel Kennedy, or whoever.

Yes - I posted a few facts and figures here, ardcarp:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?9256-Proms-2013-the-Verdict&p=331171#post331171

[Stephen Whitaker]

It is 40 years since the prog-jazz-rock outfit Soft Machine played a late-night Prom
and yet yet people still talk about things like the "Urban" Prom as an 'innovation' (welcome or otherwise).
No 'Classical' prom was sacrificed to allow Dr Who to be repeated on a family friendly Sunday morning;
or for any of the other non-classical events.

The BBC Proms can be a showcase all the music-making the BBC actually originates.

[Bryn]

It is 40 years since the prog-jazz-rock outfit Soft Machine played a late-night Prom ...

Late night? Are you sure. I thought they shared an evening Prom with Intermodulation (Smalley, Souster et al). I certainly don't recall getting home late that night. Some of Soft Machine's performance that night (well I think it's form that night - live at RAH anyway) can be found on the extended double CD version of Third, and also on YouTube.



[Oops, you were quite right, 10.00pm start. I must have been even more of a night-owl then.]

[Beef Oven!]

It is 40 years since the prog-jazz-rock outfit Soft Machine played a late-night Prom
and yet yet people still talk about things like the "Urban" Prom as an 'innovation' (welcome or otherwise).
No 'Classical' prom was sacrificed to allow Dr Who to be repeated on a family friendly Sunday morning;
or for any of the other non-classical events.

The BBC Proms can be a showcase all the music-making the BBC actually originates.

Did VDGG do a prom, or is my memory playing tricks on me?

[aeolium]

Yes - I posted a few facts and figures here, ardcarp:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?9256-Proms-2013-the-Verdict&p=331171#post331171

Caliban, those are good points about the increasing numbers of concerts this year compared with 2013. But that increased number surely has an increased cost and this relates to the discussion on the Verdi Requiem thread (on the Performance board) where some were bemoaning the reduction in EIF concerts. Given that the length of the Proms season was the same in 1969, are they actually trying to cram more Proms in at the expense of other festivals?

[Flay]

I remember watching the Soft Machine Prom on TV. I assume it was live but I cannot remember the hour.

I recall the announcer reassuring us that occasionally during the performance assistants known as "roadies" may come on stage to help with the equipment...

[David Underdown]

But that increased number surely has an increased cost and this relates to the discussion on the Verdi Requiem thread (on the Performance board) where some were bemoaning the reduction in EIF concerts. Given that the length of the Proms season was the same in 1969, are they actually trying to cram more Proms in at the expense of other festivals?

Depends what you mean by at the expense of. There are probably fewer live broadcasts from EIF, but we are now getting deferred ones of course. As to cost, they've block-booked the RAH for 8 weeks and gone to the trouble of rigging it (there is some additional rigging and unrigging each time for televised concerts, but the radio setup remains basically the same throughout the season as I understand it), so the marginal cost of an extra concert there is probably less than setting up to broadcast from somewhere else.

The BBC does after all fund the Proms, unlike other concert series/festivals so it could be argued they have some duty to get the best value for money out of it.