Seems a funny idea to me................................

[french frank]

at the risk of repeating myself, the Lachenmann is available to watch online, but before anyone jumps on me, I'm fully aware that this is not the same as being on TV as part of the whole concert etc. etc. etc. etc. - I'm simply informing anyone who might be unaware of its existence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01cmbzg

And perhaps Roger Wright should contact the Radio Times about their 'Proms guru', who having first attracted a number of complaints about his reference to the Lachenmann as sounding like 'rusty bedsprings &c' has in the latest edition softened it to 'my favourite oddity'.

[amateur51]

And perhaps Roger Wright should contact the Radio Times about their 'Proms guru', who having first attracted a number of complaints about his reference to the Lachenmann as sounding like 'rusty bedsprings &c' has in the latest edition softened it to 'my favourite oddity'.

This begins to sound like one of our esteemed members doing a spot of moonlighting

[Bryn]

This begins to sound like one of our esteemed members doing a spot of moonlighting

Would that be a reference to the highly steamed member who almost certainly attended the Buxton performance of the Sciarrino broadcast on last night's Hear and Now?

[amateur51]

Would that be a reference to the highly steamed member who almost certainly attended the Buxton performance of the Sciarrino broadcast on last night's Hear and Now?

Nay, nay t'other 'one'

[Anna]

I agree with all of the above but having said that I was present at both the Lachenmann and Colin Matthews Proms and both pieces were filmed in their entirety so I remain hopeful that we will yet see the whole of the concerts as planned perhaps when repeated sometime in the future.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, the Lachenmann in particular was an extremely tough listen .

Agreed, about 3 mins of the Lachenmann would be enough for most people. Tonight's programme though (if the RT blurb is correct), merely contains 'extracts' and I imagine the main body of the programme is discussion (I will of course watch it) But, I still do not understand why Colin Matthews' piece - which everyone here agreed was excellent and hardly difficult listening - has landed up on the cutting room floor. Although, Petrushka being a betting man I wonder what odds he can get on it ever been transmitted on tv in the future? If I were a bookie I'd give him 100-1.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Agreed, about 3 mins of the Lachenmann would be enough for most people. Tonight's programme though (if the RT blurb is correct), merely contains 'extracts' and I imagine the main body of the programme is discussion (I will of course watch it) But, I still do not understand why Colin Matthews' piece - which everyone here agreed was excellent and hardly difficult listening - has landed up on the cutting room floor. Although, Petrushka being a betting man I wonder what odds he can get on it ever been transmitted on tv in the future? If I were a bookie I'd give him 100-1.

'Old on just a cotton-picking minute there, Muskie!

Is the suggestion now that "taking 'New' Music out of the context that the performers decided was the best in which to present it is wrong - except when it's Lachenmann"???

For "most people", "about 3 mins of" Mozart would "be enough" - the Beeb shouldn't just cater to what they believe might be majority preferences. Lachenmann's Tanzsuite (the oldest in date, and the newest in spirit of the works on offer tonight) may be "an extremely tough listen" for some/many/most people - as might the Grosse Fuge. That doesn't stop either piece from being astonishing works of Music, whose "toughness" makes their broadcast (in the context that the performers - who know the works better than the spotty 12-year-olds - decided) essential.

[Anna]

the Beeb shouldn't just cater to what they believe might be majority preferences.

But, that is what they are doing, with the topping and tailing of the Proms. I've never known this happen before, I hope it won't happen again. As saly says, treating us like infants, Auntie knows best.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But, that is what they are doing, with the topping and tailing of the Proms. I've never known this happen before, I hope it won't happen again. As saly says, treating us like infants, Auntie knows best.

Quite - and I think it's a terrible policy. But I was commenting on what I thought you were suggesting (I hope I misunderstood) that this was "alright" as far as the Lachenmann work was concerned - it's either a rotten policy (which I believe) or it's not: we can't "pick & choose" the works we think should be treated like this.

[Anna]

Quite - and I think it's a terrible policy. But I was commenting on what I thought you were suggesting (I hope I misunderstood) that this was "alright" as far as the Lachenmann work was concerned

No, a misunderstanding ferney. To be honest, I picked the Lachenmann because it is challenging to the (what I imagine) the average tv viewer but, you could say Turnage or Ades is also difficult - or indeed Varese or Henze. What I am objecting to is some men in suits at the BBC deciding what we should watch!

[french frank]

Tonight's programme though (if the RT blurb is correct), merely contains 'extracts' and I imagine the main body of the programme is discussion (I will of course watch it) But, I still do not understand why Colin Matthews' piece - which everyone here agreed was excellent and hardly difficult listening - has landed up on the cutting room floor.

It's not really clear what the RT is saying. Which works are being excerpted? Which works are, definitely, excluded?

This from the online RT:

"If you’ve wondered what’s happened to some of the more challenging pieces – premieres and new commissions – excluded from the edited-for-TV Proms , here’s a neat selection package. And we’re eased into them by erudite host Tom Service with Gillian Moore, who’s head of classical music at London’s South Bank.

Brace yourselves for extracts from Mark-Anthony Turnage’s Frieze, John McCabe’s Joybox, Thomas Adès’s Totentanz and – my favourite oddity – Lachenmann’s Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied. David Matthews’s A Vision of the Sea is rather beautiful, while Murray Gold’s well-intentioned Song for 50 was the weak spot in his otherwise fabulous Doctor Who Prom."

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What I am objecting to is some men in suits at the BBC deciding what we should watch!

[Simon B]

I realise this is a minor sidestory to the issue at hand. But... A pedant notes:

This programme (as at e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b038wqc0) has been entitled, er, "Proms on Four: 20th Century Classics - New Music at the Proms" (my emphasis).

Weren't most of the pieces we might get to hear a bit of neither written nor first performed in the 20th century?

[Anna]

I am willing to eat humble pie. The complete Colin Matthews (which I was banging on about ad nauseum) was played in the programme and the Turnage will be on the 6th September (although I had thought that had been broadcast at the time). However, if the RT or the online programme details had been more specific about what exactly programmes comprised then it would have saved a lot of us getting slightly irate. I am now hopeful that the Lachenmann will in fact have a complete broadcast in due course.