Beethoven 7 - Oh that dreadful applause between movements!

[johnb]

I do think that the body language of the performer or conductor has a major influence on whether an audience applauds. A sudden dropping of the arm, slump of the shoulders, a sudden relaxation are all signals to the audience. Whereas slowly changing the posture maintains the tension and applause is less likely. (Conductors could also copy Haitink's gesture, not often used, of holding up his hand in a 'stop' sign!)

It reminds me of a guitar recital I attended in Manchester (at the RNCM). The performer gave no clues about when to applaud, kept his eyes down and didn't relax between pieces. The audience wanted to applaud but felt constrained by his body language. The whole thing began to feel increasingly awkward until someone decided that something had to be done and deliberately led the applause.

[salymap]

I do think that the body language of the performer or conductor has a major influence on whether an audience applauds. A sudden dropping of the arm, slump of the shoulders, a sudden relaxation are all signals to the audience. Whereas slowly changing the posture maintains the tension and applause is less likely. (Conductors could also copy Haitink's gesture, not often used, of holding up his hand in a 'stop' sign!)

It reminds me of a guitar recital I attended in Manchester (at the RNCM). The performer gave no clues about when to applaud, kept his eyes down and didn't relax between pieces. The audience wanted to applaud but felt constrained by his body language. The whole thing began to feel increasingly awkward until someone decided that something had to be done and deliberately led the applause.

Of course it's largely the conductor who should give a sign, my goodness some of them did in the past.
Stopping the music,turning round, arms foldedto wait for two latecomers to find their seats
near the front [not a prom], and complaining loudly that they couldn't concentrate when a flash camera annoyed them.

They were usually successful in quelling applause in the wrong place too.

[Karafan]

Well, for me, it is not snobbery Bryn. I would far prefer to be allowed to digest the complexities and beauties of a movement and relish the quiet anticipation of the next without this banal interjection. The gossamer thread is rudely, crassly, ruptured at that point and indeed the spell is broken for me. The same goes for the 'premature congratulation' at the end of magical symphony like Bruckner 9, as the final chord dies away some fool is bound to leap to his feet and bellow 'bravo!' while the bow strings still quiver.

Well, if we are to go completely laissez-faire on the matter I shall abandon the concert hall (for it is not restricted to the Proms but has begun happening in my local concert hall). If other concertgoers' ability to enjoy and commune with the piece is to be ridden over in a gloriously roughshod fashion, I vote we leave our mobiles on, take the odd call, basically do as we wish and to hell with everyone else. After all, who are we to stand in the way of the lauded freedom of personal expression...?

[jean]

I've just watched it on iPlayer - interesting to see how few of the audience members we could see actually did applaud, and of how few of those who didn't (ie none) turned, frowned, tutted, or manifested their snobbery in any other way.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've just watched it on iPlayer - interesting to see how few of the audience members we could see actually did applaud, and of how few of those who didn't (ie none) turned, frowned, tutted, or manifested their snobbery in any other way.

Please write out 100 times:
Disliking of applause between movements is not snoberry.

[Mr Pee]

Well, for me, it is not snobbery Bryn. I would far prefer to be allowed to digest the complexities and beauties of a movement and relish the quiet anticipation of the next without this banal interjection. The gossamer thread is rudely, crassly, ruptured at that point and indeed the spell is broken for me. The same goes for the 'premature congratulation' at the end of magical symphony like Bruckner 9, as the final chord dies away some fool is bound to leap to his feet and bellow 'bravo!' while the bow strings still quiver.

Well, if we are to go completely laissez-faire on the matter I shall abandon the concert hall (for it is not restricted to the Proms but has begun happening in my local concert hall). If other concertgoers' ability to enjoy and commune with the piece is to be ridden over in a gloriously roughshod fashion, I vote we leave our mobiles on, take the odd call, basically do as we wish and to hell with everyone else. After all, who are we to stand in the way of the lauded freedom of personal expression...?

Since it is the custom to applaud during opera performances, after an aria and at the end of each act, do you therefore not attend live opera?

I don't see that a bit of applause is that disruptive to one's appreciation of a performance; surely it is nothing more than a minor distraction, along with the usual coughing and murmuring that takes place anyway.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Since it is the custom to applaud during opera performances, after an aria and at the end of each act, do you therefore not attend live opera?.

This is not a particularly attractive custom - one that was knocked on the head by Wagner and others. Mind you, the most ill-mannered audiences are those who attend ballets, not even having the courtesy to wait until the music has stopped before "expressing themselves".

[Simon B]

I've just watched it on iPlayer - interesting to see how few of the audience members we could see actually did applaud, and of how few of those who didn't (ie none) turned, frowned, tutted, or manifested their snobbery in any other way.

From what I can remember, it was the usual rather half-hearted smattering that breaks out rather uncertainly among a smallish minority. Actually, since I was almost on the stage myself in the way you can only experience in the seats at the end of the front row in the RAH stalls, I could see that it did look as though Juanjo Mena was a bit distracted by it in the Beethoven, though this is of course just my impression. There were certainly some characteristically deep scowls from the usual parts of the arena!

Mena also seemed to be a little distracted by his intended flow being disrupted in the Three Cornered Hat, though again, that's just an impression. What's definitely the case is that Bolero was actually started twice, the first time aborted because of applause. This was probably inaudible on the radio relay at the time and presumably edited out of the TV version.

Getting precious about the second half of this concert would be a big mistake IMO. A few of the internet critics had a go at apopleptically missing the point, but what's new? I can imagine it was a rather... clompy and unedifying experience on the radio though, a bit like listening to snooker, or, well, ballet.

The applause in the Beethoven? Ideally I'd rather there wasn't, but like Petrushka above I decided some time ago that just ignoring it is the way to go. The nature of the programme and the presence of dancers meant there were a lot of children and probably less "typical" concert goers in the audience, and that does seem well correlated with a higher incidence of inter-movement applause. It's understandable really - to the "uninitiated" (for want of a less loaded term) the lack of inter-movement applause must seem bizarre given exposure to just about any other form of live music...

The chances are it's not going to happen when, e.g. the Rattles and Haitinks of the world drop in, or more imminently in Jansons Mahler 2 on Friday. Not IMO for the usual mystical reasons ascribed to conductors of this ilk (though some are not averse to showing that even considering thinking about the possibility of applauding will not be welcome) but mostly because the only people who manage to get tickets to these Proms are the most clued-up and determined. I.e., the hall is almost entirely populated, like it or not, by regular concert-goers most of whom still don't approve of it.

[jean]

Please write out 100 times:
Disliking of applause between movements is not snoberry.

But I know that! It's what I said - there was no snobbery evident to me among the people I could see on my screen this afternoon.

However, if I have to write out 100 lines anyway, mayn't I at least spell it snobbery?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

However, if I have to write out 100 lines anyway, mayn't I at least spell it snobbery?

It looked wrong, but I had a mental block, and couldn't figure out why.

[BBMmk2]

If the performance demands it, I think an audience should be allowed to clap(although, this may put the performer off), this can be judged by the conductor's body language. I don't think that when a soloist in an orchestra plays a solo, that they should be applauded.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I too think the audience should be allowed to clap,

...at the end.

[french frank]

Since it is the custom to applaud during opera performances, after an aria and at the end of each act, do you therefore not attend live opera?

I would invite you to expound the various reasons why that is quite different from interruptions between movements of a symphony or concerto. I'm sure you can think of some. Mind you, it restores one's faith in humanity to see you and Bryn in full agreement here

[Bryn]

As I have pointed out in previous rounds of this discussion, I tend not to engage in applause between movements. Indeed, if I don't reckon the music (as was the case with the Glass 10th) I don't applaud at first. I wait until it's clearly the performers, rather than the composer, comprise the target of approbation. However, I am entirely happy that some who either do not know the relatively recent convention of holding back 'till the end, or want to take a stand against it, do go back to an earlier convention. What I consider snobbery is the sneering tone that some here have adopted in their expressions of dislike for not only the practice but the practitioners.

I have attended recitals by the composer, pianist and tuba player John White on many occasions. Sometimes he specifically requests of the audience that they refrain from expressing their approbation until the end of a sequence of musical items he is to perform. In such a recital, applause would indeed be out of place. I would suggest that Beethoven might well have been somewhat put out had nobody applauded each movement when the 7th was first performed.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Beethoven is dead.