Beethoven 7 - Oh that dreadful applause between movements!

[gurnemanz]

For me the abortive, half-hearted clapping from a section of the audience which is unaware of the convention adhered to by the majority is just pointless and slightly embarrassing. If this applause were actually wholehearted, genuine appreciation from most of the audience, as sometimes happens with an aria in an opera, it might be a different matter, but I still don't think I would generally be in favour of it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When one of them forgets who pays the piper, perhaps. Frankly I find the annual "I know best when to applaud" threads pretty inane,

Not half as inane as when a conductor actually encourages people to clap between movements.

And consideration for others is never snobbishness.

[Bryn]

Not half as inane as when a conductor actually encourages people to clap between movements.

And consideration for others is never snobbishness.

Then how about some consideration for those showing the approbation. There is no escaping the snobbishness displayed here. The convention for not applauding each movement is a relatively new one. Elgar certainly did not appear put off by the applause which met the movements of his First Symphony under Richter's baton:

"The symphony was an immediate success, with Elgar being recalled to the platform several times both during and after the symphony's first performance and the first London performance four days later."

[MrGongGong]

Bingo

I was getting seriously worried that a whole Proms season would come and go without a thing about clapping between movements

in short

Bryn is right .........

and Context is all ....... 4 hours of late night Feldman in St Pauls' Hall ........... or the Proms ?

If you want your music to be a silent spiritual experience then the former would be a good idea not the latter

I love it when people are so caught up in the music that they applaud in the "wrong" places , shows that the music is working.
If you want a solitary musical experience there are plenty here who will advise you on platinum-plated-oxy, tgen-free-cyrogenically-frozen-blessed-by-virgins "realistic" HiFi

A few years ago I went to a Kabuki performance in Tokyo. One of the things that was extraordinary was the way in which the performance shifted from the feeling of a solemn religious ritual to the atmosphere of a football match and back again. One of the things that many people hate about the traditional presentation of "classical music" (and this is true for some folk music & Jazz as well ) is that one is expected, as a member of the audience, to display no emotional response whatsoever. Strange that, in Classical Indian music performances the attention to the music is often far greater than audiences at the RAH and there is no problem at all with appearing to be affected by the music ?

[Hornspieler]

Well, at least they couldn't applaud between movements of Sibelius 7th symphony!

(Not that there was much to applaud about IMV)

HS

[Mr Pee]

Well, at least they couldn't applaud between movements of Sibelius 7th symphony!

(Not that there was much to applaud about IMV)

HS

[visualnickmos]

... That between separate, non-attacca, movements on a multi-movement work (where re-tuning and/or shuffling and coughing is commonplace) is quite another matter. The expressions here of disdain for such applause is indeed nothing short of snobbery.

I agree with your point here - except perhaps for "The expressions here of disdain for such applause is indeed nothing short of snobbery"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Most of these so called applauders aren't applauding at all. There is a break in the sound, so they think it has to be filled. It's a disease that affects many on an increasing scale. Announcers who who think they have to jabber constantly. Theatre sound engineer who deem it necessary to switch on the piped music for every second when the performance isn't running,

If striving for higher standards of etiquette mean being labelled as a snob, I'll happily wear it.

All the newbies need is guidance. I've taken part in many performances when there have been requests for "restraining" applause until the end, and everyone seemed more that happy.

[salymap]

I've got nothing to be snobbish about but if it's okay to clap anywhere these days,why is it only happening at our proms.?

If I know a work my mind travels forward to the opening of the next movement. AsI said once before it's 'musicus interruptus' and upsets the flow of the work. Coughing and shuffling are quite different.

[Ferretfancy]

The thoroughly unmusical snobbery being displayed here is pretty sickening, in my view.

It isn't a matter of snobbery, it's a matter of musical argument. A symphony is a complete entity, and very often the tension created by one movement is resolved in the next. If this is interrupted it ruins the concentration for a large section of the audience. It's interesting that clapping between movements usually starts with a few, and is then taken up uncertainly by others, presumably because they are not sure of themselves. THe same people would probably not like it if a lively conversation went on during the performance, it's a simple matter of courtesy.

[Sir Velo]

All the newbies need is guidance. I've taken part in many performances when there have been requests for "restraining" applause until the end, and everyone seemed more that happy.

I think you'll find it isn't newbies that are leading the applause. IME, inexperienced concert-goers always look for a lead from others due to a natural diffidence as to what constitures correct concert etiquette. Even if it were coming from newbies, the glares and "shushes" from the rest of the auditorium would prevent any further outbreaks. No, the fact is, it is led by a hardcore pro-applause faction who actively want to release classical music concerts from, what they consider, stuffy formality. If you listen, it sounds "orchestrated", tepid and perfunctory. It certainly doesn't sound like a spontaneous outburst of uncontainable enthusiasm!

Personally, I take a non-fundamentalist position. Certain orchestral showpieces cry out for applause after particularly virtuosic movements (e.g. Tchaikovsky PC1 first movement). Other compositions, particularly symphonic repertoire of the 19th century, have their essential unity destroyed by outbreaks of injudicious applause. Even Tom Service in his manifesto for applause, admitted that a work such as a Mahler symphony or Tchaikovsky 6 was butchered by applause.

Moreover, the historical argument is a disreputable canard. For one thing, why invoke historical precedent to determine our own response? In fact, when you delve into it, much of the evidence for inter-movement applause is contradictory. Elgar liked inter-movement applause; Mendelssohn hated it.

[french frank]

It's 'snobbery' when you disagree with it, or can't understand why people feel differently from you. But the reasons why people get upset are what marks out the snob. If it's simply to flaunt the "I know better than these people" attitude, it's snobbery. But if it genuinely upsets people, it can't be snobbery to say so. It's something else again if you are privy to other people inner feelings. No?

[BBMmk2]

There seems to be a couple of threads on the 7th?

[MrGongGong]

If it's simply to flaunt the "I know better than these people" attitude, it's snobbery.

I think there is more than a little element of this.........and some rather curious ideas
no one is ever suggesting that it's somehow OK to cheer, let off fireworks and crowd surf everywhere
BUT
the context for the Proms is NOT owned by those who might refer to them as "our" Proms
At Verbier last week (which could be said to be one of the most 'hardcore' and potentially 'snobbish' Classical music festivals there is) there was plenty of inter-movemnet applause which didn't seem wrong to me , even in Mahler 3.

Phrases like "All the newbies need is guidance" indicate to me a proprietorial attitude to music that really isn't helpful at all (even though some of the folk who say this are, i know, passionate and committed educators) ..... it's not a secret club you have to join

It's the Proms, i.e hundreds of people standing in a large jelly mould in temperatures that would be illegal to keep a ferret in ! (not you )

I wrote a symphony last year and was most relieved when after the first movement a sizeable portion of the audience clapped .......

[cloughie]

Elgar liked inter-movement applause; Mendelssohn hated it.

Elgar would have been pretty peed off if they'd clapped between the 2nd and 3rd movts of Sym 1 - and Mendelssohn - I'd be tempted to clap like mad after the Sinfonia of the 2nd Sym and hope they would not play the rest!