The actual Proms programme 12 July - 7 September

[aeolium]

Oh, I would say that posters quite often seem to think that the whole programme should conform with their tastes.

I can't say I've ever had that impression.

Now if you were to say that the RAH is not at all well suited to Mozart opera, I would tend to agree, but Wagner? For Wagner it's great

Why? For Wagner operas above all the dramatic action, the staging needs to be seen. For the Proms to schedule an opera lasting more than 5 hours is extremely rare, and in this season they are having several, including three in successive evenings in the unforgiving environment of the RAH.

carped at

Every time I see terms like "moaners", "whingers", "carped at" I just think people are trying to suppress opinions with which they disagree, while their own criticism of R3 or Proms programming is of course never of that kind. I don't think anyone should take any notice of such terms, only comments of substance. What next - "Just rejoice!"?

[teamsaint]

Dead right. Most orchestras on tour will offer no more than 2 or 3 programmes and will very likely bring their own soloist(s). On the whole tour programmes will be constructed/planned to showcase the orchestra and fill venues - not to balance the Proms as a whole. That role falls to the more flexible BBC orchestras. It's a tour de force to offer a concert every day over such a long period, so yes well done Roger Wright.

Well I don't suppose they are short of decent performers wanting work,several house orchestras, there is no shortage of repertoire, and the RAH and contractors must do a lot of the menial stuff.
There are tougher jobs.
I don't see the problem with pointing out routine deficiencies in the programming, while giving praise where it is due.

[Sir Velo]

I don't like Bantock, but I'm not going to start whingeing that Wright has no business programming 2nd rate music just because it's English.

Hoist on your own petard methinks.

[RobertLeDiable]

For Wagner operas above all the dramatic action, the staging needs to be seen.

I can only go by my own experience (and I suppose that of the 5000-odd others who packed the RAH for the Covent Garden Walkure). It was a huge success.

Every time I see terms like "moaners", "whingers", "carped at" I just think people are trying to suppress opinions with which they disagree, while their own criticism of R3 or Proms programming is of course never of that kind. I don't think anyone should take any notice of such terms, only comments of substance. What next - "Just rejoice!"?

You seem to be quite happy to suppress my opinion that some of the criticism here is unwarranted, or unfair, or just a bit ad hominem (as far as RW is concerned). But hey - you think it's an appalling idea that the Proms is putting on a mini Wagner Festival in the bicentenary year. I think it's a great idea. Shall we agree to differ?

[RobertLeDiable]

Hoist on your own petard methinks.

In what way? I'm saying that I'm not going to complain about individual concerts at the Proms any more than I would at, say, the Salzburg or Edinburgh Festivals.

[Charlie]

It is remarkably easy to complain about individual concerts at the Proms. You can email Roger Wright directly, or here is the appropriate webpage:

BBC Proms - Ask the Director

Of course, Roger can be a bit slippery, as all the Friends of Radio 3 will testify, but he cannot please everyone all the time!

[Petrushka]

Of course, Roger...cannot please everyone all the time!

I think most of us on here realise this and, to be honest, I do get a bit irritated by those who bemoan the absence of their particular obsession.

In response to RLD, I was at all of the Proms Ring performances between 2004 and 2007 and can fully testify to the gripping effect these had on the audiences. Runnicles Götterdämmerung was quite thrilling. As mentioned above, Wagner has been at the forefront of my musical life for over 40 years but I really do think that to perform 7 Wagner operas in one season (at the expense of Verdi) is massive anniversary overkill and something of a misjudgement.

[amateur51]

Hoist on your own petard methinks.

How so?

[RobertLeDiable]

Well I do regret that there isn't more Verdi - Aida would be an ideal Proms opera, or Otello - I just think that giving so many, who probably wouldn't otherwise do so, the chance to experience a whole Ring is a great thing. Perhaps having such distinguished conductors, orchestras and soloists all available in one summer was too much for RW to resist programming the other three as well. It's sometimes possible to have a dream opera cast for a concert performance in a way you rarely could for a stage production, because a concert version is put together in so much less time.

By and large, I'm in favour of doing big things, not avoiding doing them!

[Suffolkcoastal]

A glance at previous anniversary seasons for Wagner & Verdi, 1963, 1983 and 2001 is very eye opening. In fact you would be hard pushed to realise that either had an anniversary in those years. There were a couple of operas in the latter two years and one in 1963, but none were by Verdi or Wagner, in fact Wagner doesn't appear that much at all in 1983 and Verdi's representation in 2001 was about the same as this year's. So with Wagner we have considerable underkill in 1983 and drastic overkill in 2013, neither of which is satisfactory. The argument for the former is that Wagner as a great composer doesn't need overexposure in an anniversary year and perhaps this argument is the right one to take with any great composer's anniversary at the Proms. Then of course there is the argument that we should do all we can to celebrate a great composer in their anniversary year. The major problem with the latter occurs when he have more than one great composer in any one year and when you have three of the greatest opera composers of all in one year, what do you do? The approach shown this year of strongly favouring one composer over the other two is highly controversial and as we all know RW thrives on and has an obsession with this. But there is a real danger that the precedent turning what is mainly an orchestral and choral festival into a mini opera festival devoted to one composer, could become more frequent and ultimately the Proms will suffer. The right thing to do was to balance all three two operas and an orchestral/highlights (i.e. old fashioned Wagner night) each. It avoids any hint of director bias and would keep fans of all three composers fans happy.
Ultimately the loosers as they have often been in recent years, are the slightly less well known composers, whose chance in the limelight (and I'm not saying there should be ten pieces by each, just two or three) of a great festival in their anniversary year is sacrificed for either the sake of controversy or at the personal whim and taste of the director. By sidelining and snubbing these other composers we are ultimately damaging the future of classical music, as the field and repertoire narrows, so will the interest and some great music could disappear for ever.

[Veronika]

Look around the world - there's probably no other festival in the world (apart from Bayreuth obviously) that could programme the complete Ring plus three other Wagner operas in the space of eight or nine weeks. As well as that there is literally no other festival in the world that could mount such a massive undertaking with world class conductors, orchestras and casts at the ticket prices you pay at the Proms. Most of us, if we wanted to see/hear a complete live Ring in Britain, would have to pay a fortune to do so at Covent Garden, and even then we would be lucky to get tickets once the subscribers had got their priority booking. To hear Barenboim, Bychkov and Runnicles conduct Wagner live, we'd need to be rich enough to travel round Europe. This is the point - the Wagner anniversary is a great opportunity to let a much bigger audience experience these epoch-making works live at a fraction of the usual price. It's only seven nights out of nine weeks, for goodness sake!

That's exactly what the Proms should be doing, and I think all this world-weary cynicism just shows that you have no idea how important these performances are in the wider context of music in this country.

You do not address the last part of my post in your reply, namely that seven operas from anyone in one season could be considered an overkill. Moreover, I'm afraid that your post contains an attempt at a personal insult, and therefore I will not engage in any further discussion with you on this particular topic.

[RobertLeDiable]

The approach shown this year of strongly favouring one composer over the other two is highly controversial

Maybe, but you can be sure there will have been practical considerations as to which operas to choose. For example, in Runnicles the BBC Scottish has a leading Wagnerian as its conductor. Tannhauser isn't done so often in this country, it's a great choral opera and the chorus from Runnicles's Deutsche Oper is one of the world's best. Elder has been working his way through the Wagner operas with the Halle, and now that he's got to Parsifal, it makes perfect sense to have him do it with the Halle at the Proms. Bychkov is a very fine Wagnerian, and now has a formal relationship with the BBC SO, so his Tristan with them is an obvious thing to put on. Then, who wouldn't want to have Barenboim and his Berlin forces doing a complete Ring, which they have in their bones?

[Zucchini]

By sidelining and snubbing these other composers [other than Wagner] we are ultimately damaging the future of classical music, as the field and repertoire narrows, so will the interest and some great music could disappear for ever.

Blimey, the Proms must be important. I didn't know that the mighty Barenboim with some help from Bychkov, Runnicles and Elder are going to damage the future of classical music and make great music disappear. In just 7 evenings.

At least that will make room for a belated debut by Andre Rieu

[Barbirollians]

It is a badly unbalanced season. Far too much Wagner and Verdi treated with disdain.

Well at least we have some Bantock .

[Suffolkcoastal]

I just wish some people would read postings in full and comment on the full posting, but perhaps I expect too much of RW's devotees. I too will say no more on this thread, other than the proms has weathered many storms and has been passed successful on from one director to another, let's just hope it continues to survive and there is still a great festival remaining to passed on 30 or so years from now.