The actual Proms programme 12 July - 7 September

[BBMmk2]

The Proms, year afer year, used to have, yes Wagner nights and LvB nights too, but they also had Tchaikovsky as well. But these days I do get the feeling that, in some ways, this festival is dumbing down, in a different way, ie, with The Dr Who Proms(2 of them!!), World Routes Prom, ect etc?

[Nick Armstrong]

dumbing down... World Routes Prom

You'll catch it !

[Petrushka]

I've got well used to the annual gripe-fest that bursts forth whenever the Proms guide is issued and don't take much notice of it as I find plenty to look forward to in the season. However, for the first time I find this seasons offerings to be well below par. The once proud boast that the Proms was the greatest music festival in the world now looks sadly empty.

Wagner's operas have been with me now for over 40 years and I love them still but seven of them in one Prom season is way over the top and is utter madness. The Ring alone would have sufficed to mark the bi-centenary especially as it's never been done at the Proms in the same season. While I care little for Verdi one of his operas could surely have been done. Having said that, the Proms should primarily be a concert series and opera, any opera, should be a rarity. The Albert Hall is a concert venue and not an opera house.

The notion that the Proms is the personal plaything of one man (ie the Controller) is unacceptable and, if it is indeed the case, should end forthwith. Most of the visiting orchestras (not many and not of festival standard this year in my view, VPO and BRSO excepted) will have pre-planned programmes with which they tour during the summer so the Proms will have to work round what they are offering. The BBC orchestras, on the other hand, have greater flexibility and can range far and wide.

The Proms schedule this year is a huge disappointment in terms of repertoire and artists on offer and while I have for many years had difficulty whittling down the numbers in deciding which ones to attend I am now in the slightly perplexing situation of not having enough.

[Anna]

The notion that the Proms is the personal plaything of one man (ie the Controller) is unacceptable and, if it is indeed the case, should end forthwith.
The Proms schedule this year is a huge disappointment in terms of repertoire and artists on offer

Is this a fact, that R. Wright personally chooses what is to be performed? Not some committee of RAH and BBC and what will sell? Or is it just a BBC show, hence the R6 and R1X involvement? Apologies for ignorance not knowing how it's organised!

[french frank]

But these days I do get the feeling that, in some ways, this festival is dumbing down, in a different way, ie, with The Dr Who Proms(2 of them!!), World Routes Prom, ect etc?

We-e-ll, contrary to what Charlie, and his partner , agree on when he says in Msg#128: "As for dumbing down, this is a theme that has been taken up by the Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3) over the past decade."

This is a misrepresentation of the FoR3 view: introducing rap/urban music, Broadway/film, World Routes &c. Proms isn't dumbing down, because these different forms each have their own musical genius and high performance skills. The questionable thinking (?) is that in bringing such music to the Proms (or R3) or inventing fusions of Baroque/Bieber in some way familiarises people or brings them into classical music. It is surely cynical to claim it: if such is really the aim, and a 'good thing', why is there such unwillingness to introduce classical programming to BBC Two, BBC Three, Radio 1 and Radio 2? BBC Two will probably get such 'light Proms' as the Hollywood and film music Proms, BBC Three may get the Doctor Who Prom, and Radio 2 the 2nd half of the LN. Once-a-year tokenism. 'Rapsters' and 'popsters' are being introduced to rap and pop at the Proms, rather than to the classical Proms. When 'An Evening with Michael Ball' sells out at the RAH, why should one think those who go to a standard MB concert will then want to go to a classical Prom?

Not intended for discussion - merely a corrective to what has been written previously - more on "one man's plaything" in a mo...

[aeolium]

Wagner's operas have been with me now for over 40 years and I love them still but seven of them in one Prom season is way over the top and is utter madness. The Ring alone would have sufficed to mark the bi-centenary especially as it's never been done at the Proms in the same season. While I care little for Verdi one of his operas could surely have been done. Having said that, the Proms should primarily be a concert series and opera, any opera, should be a rarity. The Albert Hall is a concert venue and not an opera house.

For those interested in statistics (Suffolk?) the amount of time allocated to Wagner's music at this season's Proms is just over 27 hours (according to the guide timings). I would find it very surprising if this had been equalled in any previous season for any composer.

[french frank]

The notion that the Proms is the personal plaything of one man (ie the Controller) is unacceptable and, if it is indeed the case, should end forthwith.

Given the huge amount of patronage and influence of the BBC, it has been commented that this can (and does) concentrate too much power in the hands of whoever has charge of 'classical music', particularly when the Controller, Radio 3, and the Director of the Proms are the same person. RW is the longest-serving controller, and I think the longest holder of both roles simultaneously.

Some features of these Proms do indeed seem to have the RW fingerprints, two things in particular being the self-styled 'anti-elitism'/broadening the audience aim/popularity - the attention-seeking gimmickry which aims at getting press coverage - and the large scale 'completism', which echo the ideology behind some of Radio 3's programming.

[Suffolkcoastal]

For those interested in statistics (Suffolk?) the amount of time allocated to Wagner's music at this season's Proms is just over 27 hours (according to the guide timings). I would find it very surprising if this had been equalled in any previous season for any composer.

At a quick glance this looks like a record by some margin. I've just looked at the Proms from 10, 20 & 30 years ago. All three easily win hands down over this season, the programming from 20 and 30 years ago in particular is much more interesting. It is stange how certain works crop in more than of the four seasons I've just looked at, and it is about time The Planets and The Rite of Spring were given a rest at least for the next two seasons. Another major composer totally absent this year is Bartok. Interesting to not that both 1993 and 2003 featured works by William Schuman, whose centenary in 2010 was also snubbed at the The Proms by the current Director. Looking back at other Seasons from the last 30 years, the current season really does show a certain director's personal preferences and attention seeking obsession taking an ever greater hold, note also all the Tchaikovsky symphonies this year why? Just like all the Brahms and Beethoven in the last couple of years. One further point, is it me or does there appear to be a slightly higher number of CFM Hall of Fame pieces this year?

[Stunsworth]

He's written another article about the Proms today. He's very grumpy.

Must everything be dumbed down

What a miserable sod. He's written off the whole season on the basis of a single prom that he hasn't heard, but doesn't like the sound of (no pun intended).

[pilamenon]

Disappointing to read so much negativity. By and large, I'm very happy with the variety on offer. The trend does seem to have moved towards more opera, whereas a short while ago it was all about the anniversary composers. These things are fads, and come and go, but the Proms remains an extraordinary festival, and very few people will be around to listen to the entire season, anyway. I don't understand why people worry about their favourite not being adequately represented in a given year - there are 22 hours of radio broadcasting every day not covered by the Proms, not to mention the easy availability of CDs and online streaming/downloading. We have far more opportunity to hear every work we wish to hear as often as we wish to hear it, yet the Proms is still somehow meant to be the annual event that completely satisfies everybody - it can't possibly do that with so much music out there. There are no doubt a lot of works that even lifelong listeners will be less familiar with, that the Proms will introduce them to, if they can overcome their annoyance at the omission of their particular favourites.

I'm very much looking forward to the Sea Symphony to kick things off, and the first half of the season looks very strong. Kennedy's Four Seasons another stand-out. I do agree with those who find it odd to programme Tristan in the middle of the Ring Cycle - chronologically correct it may be, but it surely interrupts the narrative. The Ring Cycle used to be a rare treat, but I will have now heard four on Radio 3 in less than nine months!

One minor complaint - the website has changed so that you can't see the music and the performers at a glance, but have to click into the individual concert details. It worked perfectly well in previous years, a pity that they've changed that.

[seabright]

I wonder why John Wilson's name is missing from the on-line list of performers? Well, at least his Hollywood Rhapsody Prom is sure to be a sell-out, though whether he'll come up with an encore as dazzling as this one remains to be seen ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6skpCNIoes

[Pabmusic]

What a miserable sod. He's written off the whole season on the basis of a single prom that he hasn't heard, but doesn't like the sound of (no pun intended).

I think you're right. But there's a deal of truth in this passage:

This idea that everything is equally valid has taken hold so firmly that we have now reached the idiocy of the Proms being widened to include performers whose only talent is to be able to play records and make a noise into a microphone.

It's important to separate this dumbing down from the admirable attempts, at which the Proms often excels, to make classical music approachable.

People don't seem to read The Emperor's New Clothes anymore - and they certainly don't seem to hear Frank Loesser's excellent song of it. But then we don't have Family Favourites, do we?

[Charlie]

We-e-ll, contrary to what Charlie, and his partner , agree on when he says in Msg#128: "As for dumbing down, this is a theme that has been taken up by the Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3) over the past decade."

'This is a misrepresentation of the FoR3 view: introducing rap/urban music, Broadway/film, World Routes &c. Proms isn't dumbing down, because these different forms each have their own musical genius and high performance skills.'

This is also a misrepresentation of Charlie's view: the "dumbing down", up or whatever of BBC Radio 3, the Proms and wider culture over the past few decades is not uniquely dumb nor down. It is, on occasion, both smart and up, and it is important to encourage any such improvements! My partner has asked me to add, french frank, that if you are back in robust health this summer, which we sincerely hope that you are, you should pay the Proms a visit in order to make your own assessment of "the state of play" in 2013.

'The questionable thinking (?) is that in bringing such music to the Proms (or R3) or inventing fusions of Baroque/Bieber in some way familiarises people or brings them into classical music.'

I think that fusions do bring people into classical music. Film music is an obvious example. Fusions also change classical music. Opera is another obvious example. Of course, Wagner did go on a bit!

'It is surely cynical to claim it: if such is really the aim, and a 'good thing', why is there such unwillingness to introduce classical programming to BBC Two, BBC Three, Radio 1 and Radio 2?'

You ultimately have to put on what people are going to watch or listen to, or even attend. The Proms are successful precisely because people still attend them.

'BBC Two will probably get such 'light Proms' as the Hollywood and film music Proms, BBC Three may get the Doctor Who Prom, and Radio 2 the 2nd half of the LN.'

BBC One (television) will also get the second half the Last Night (LN). This is one of the most watched classical music concerts in the world! Of course, some people love it, whilst others hate it! Charlie generally has better things to do on a Saturday night, french frank, although Charlie's partner sadly does not.

'Once-a-year tokenism.'

A token is better than nothing, although, to be honest, many people would rather have nothing! On balance, we would rather have the Proms!

' 'Rapsters' and 'popsters' are being introduced to rap and pop at the Proms, rather than to the classical Proms.'

The Proms have always combined a populist and elitist ethos.

BBC - History of the Proms

'When 'An Evening with Michael Ball' sells out at the RAH, why should one think those who go to a standard MB concert will then want to go to a classical Prom?'

It is called cross-marketing, french frank. Of course, not all Michael Ball fans are going to become classical music fans overnight, but Charlie reckons that we all change our musical tastes over the course of our lifetimes! 'West Side Story' is currently my favourite musical!

'Not intended for discussion - merely a corrective to what has been written previously - more on "one man's plaything" in a mo...

This reply is not intended for discussion, but merely to clarify Charlie's view. As for one man's plaything, french frank, I should add that one man's plaything is anything but Charlie.

Telegraph - Proms 2013: First female conductor Marin Alsop is just the ticket

[Andrew Slater]

One minor complaint - the website has changed so that you can't see the music and the performers at a glance, but have to click into the individual concert details. It worked perfectly well in previous years, a pity that they've changed that.

I've set up a one page listing to address that very complaint, here. There's a link to it in the main Forum sidebar.

[Resurrection Man]

I've set up a one page listing to address that very complaint, here. There's a link to it in the main Forum sidebar.

Andrew, you Sir, are a STAR !!! At least this year there doesn't seem to be the oceans of white space but I agree....the week-to-view that we used to have was so much, much better. But then that format doesn't fit those wee screens that I see lots of people peering into.