The actual Proms programme 12 July - 7 September

[Charlie]

Huh ???

Sorry, Caliban! It was meant to be a joke, but it obviously misfired, so I have edited out any reference to lice! A few days ago, however, I was discussing the Proms at a party, and someone said to me, "The problem with the Promenaders, of course, Charlie, is that they smell!"

In all fairness, I suggested that such generalisations were dangerous, teamsaint, but he then proceeded to list a catalogue of unparalleled vice. Stephen Pollard did something similar ten years ago, and he is at it again today!

"There is no other audience quite so noisy, fidgety, intolerant, smelly and plain bloody awful as the Promenaders. I know how bad they are because I used to be one of them. I started when I was a student and for more than a decade I put up with their din, their restless twitching, their inanity, their cliquiness and, perhaps worst of all, their appalling personal hygiene."

Telegraph - Proms ruined by the Prommers

PS It should be added that Stephen Pollard wrote this particular article in the middle of the hottest summer on record, so it is hardly suprising that the Royal Albert Hall was uncomfortable during July and August 2003. I have also just been informed that over more recent years, the Royal Albert Hall has introduced air conditioning, so it does not get quite as hot as it used to!

[Nick Armstrong]

smelly

There's a whiff of the troll about this thread all of a sudden...

[teamsaint]

Can only speak as I find.
I have prommed a few times, and the behaviour and personal hygiene have been absolutely impeccable !

Yes a few prommers might be a bit of a clique. Well so what? I'm not in the clique, and I don't find it a problem.

The Pollard article is genuinely offensive, not least because it is the kind of crass generalisation that does so much damage when topics of real importance are discussed.

I am amazed that he put up with it for 10 years...did he really?I don't think most people would if it was THAT bad..

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's a whiff of the troll about this thread all of a sudden...

[teamsaint]

just seen that article is 10 years old. Perhaps the prommers cleaned up their act, after that telling off...

[gingerjon]

The Pollard article is genuinely offensive, not least because it is the kind of crass generalisation that does so much damage when topics of real importance are discussed.

I am amazed that he put up with it for 10 years...did he really?I don't think most people would if it was THAT bad..

He's written another article about the Proms today. He's very grumpy.

Must everything be dumbed down

[somename]

Well I'm rather excited for all the Bantock. Although I saw "Sapphic Poem" and thought it was Sappho at first, and realised it was only 10 minutes. But I will probably get a ticket for the Celtic symphony and maybe having a go at Promming the rest. It's cheap and all and I like it in the gallery, but the hanging around queuing in the late afternoon is a pain when you have, you know, work.

And also, I always find it disappointing the Proms never do any student concessions. Do they imagine we've all gone home to the provinces or that we ought to be Promming? (No traffic cone/pot noodle jokes please)

[Charlie]

My own experience is that people sitting can be just as bad, if not worse, than people standing at the Proms, teamsaint, but most Promenaders behave impeccably! Of course, it only takes a few people in an audience to ruin a concert, and the Proms, almost by definition, attracts large audiences! My partner asked me to add that the informal atmosphere of the Proms lends itself to unconventional behaviour, and many newcomers, who have never been to a classical music concert before, are genuinely uncertain about when to clap, for example, between movements. I, too, get a bit confused! As for dumbing down, this is a theme that has been taken up by the Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3) over the past decade, gingerjon, certainly since before Stephen Pollard wrote his first polemic about Prommers in 'The Telegraph'. 'The Express', too, could be dumbing down, however, so perhaps Stephen Pollard himself has gone downmarket over the past decade! Anyway, here is Stephen Pollard's argument, quoted directly from gingerjon's link:

' ... But, boy oh boy, what utter rubbish has been given a platform to join them. On August 10, the Albert Hall stage will be taken over for the so-called "Urban Classic Prom", bringing together the BBC Symphony Orchestra with "leading performers from the UK's vibrant urban music scene".

I've nothing against urban music's fans enjoying whatever gets them excited. Each to their own - although for me the word "urban" should more accurately be replaced with "not".

But the Proms is a festival of the world's greatest music. The idea that "rapper, DJ and producer Fazer", as one of the participants is described, would be worthy of sharing a stage even with a junior school orchestra is an insult.

It is an insult to any musician's years of practice and to the skill of real musicians. It is an insult to the intelligence of anyone with even a basic concept of genuine music. And it is an insult to those children learning what music-making actually involves. Rap is not music. It is someone standing in front of a microphone mouthing off a few staggered rhymes. It might be popular with some people but so is chess and so is drag car racing. Rap is no more music than they are.

As for DJ-ing: when I was growing up the DJs who played records at discos were bunged a few quid by the organiser and that was that. Now the people who spin records on a turntable at clubs describe themselves as musicians and are feted by their fans.

I'm convinced that this is actually a Candid Camera joke that will one day be exposed. But now even the Proms has joined in the joke and accorded them the honour of a Prom. To play some records. What a farce. And what a commentary on the near-total collapse in self-confidence of those who once stood up for excellence.

In a sense it's amazing that the Proms have managed to survive until now without dumbing down. Look around and it is almost impossible to find an organisation content simply to strive for excellence.

The idea of excellence is dismissed as "oppressive" and "undemocratic". It is wrong to make a judgment. Everything is equally valid. And there is a fear that unless everything is made "inclusive" and easy then it is impossible to justify its existence.

So anything that once celebrated excellence for its own sake now has to apologise for its existence. Instead of doing what it does best, it dilutes itself with rubbish ... '

Express - Rap at the Proms: Must everything be dumbed down?

Is Stephen Pollard right? How bad do you all think that the Proms have actually become over more recent years?

[Lord Mersey]

With the standard of journalism displayed by Mr.Pollard,not even the paper(?) we do not speak of in these parts would employ him!!

[teamsaint]

Probably poinless saying this, but pollard might usefully attack those REALLY responsible for what he calls "Dumbing Down", (And that would mean aiming high) rather than at Urban music. Most bof his article is the usual divisive nonsense that those with power love us to throw at each other.
I wonder if he has tried rapping?

[gurnemanz]

Here's a nice list and a great photo.

[gingerjon]

Probably poinless saying this, but pollard might usefully attack those REALLY responsible for what he calls "Dumbing Down", (And that would mean aiming high) rather than at Urban music. Most bof his article is the usual divisive nonsense that those with power love us to throw at each other.
I wonder if he has tried rapping?

I sincerely doubt he has. Done well it's spectacularly hard. Done badly ... well, I await Mr Pollard's effort on YouTube in due course.

Anyway, probably not to everyone's taste but here's what you get for first hit when entering 'classical music beatbox' into the YouTube search:

I've been out of the loop for a while. I shall now go and peruse the programme.

[aeolium]

Which artist(s) would you turn down, aeolie? Barenboim? Runnicles? Elder? Bychkov? They're there, offering their services as Wagnerians; what would you do? Insist that Elder does Hindemith instead? Turn down an appearance at this year's Proms by Elder in order to get, say, Nagano to do a "Carmelites"? Or accept what Elder offers you? Because that is the call the real Proms Controller has to make.

But that suggests that the Proms Director is completely at the mercy of the performers, in this case the conductors. Was it like that under Glock or Drummond?
If RW had decided that the Ring Cycle would be done, and had received Barenboim's offer to conduct it, then that should have ruled out any other Wagner operas for the Proms this year (particularly as there would have been ample opportunity to broadcast them from other sources at other times - not the case with works by more minor anniversary composers).

There are good reasons why there are very few operas in most Proms seasons. Most obviously, it is not an opera house and there is only so much that semi-staging can achieve (and perhaps particularly difficult for Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk operas). But also conditions are far from ideal for performers and audience, with great heat in a crowded hall and many of the audience if not forced to stand at least without proper seats. That perhaps is why the endurance Prom, the really long opera - like William Tell recently and Die Meistersinger - is an exceptional event. Yet this season has four Wagner Proms of around 4 hours or more and one of nearly 5 hours. It's certainly going to be tough, especially if it's a hot summer

[french frank]

I had a cursory look at the article, just to get an idea (I did), and would love to attend a thoughtful seminar about the issues involved - as there certainly are issues that merit study.

As it was, I contented myself with the "Also on the Express" headline link, alongside:

"Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson urges players to stand up and be counted."

[Veronika]

My own experience is that people sitting can be just as bad, if not worse, than people standing at the Proms [...]

Like the three middle-aged ladies in the Front Circle, in the row just behind me, who unpacked a small picnic in the middle of a Prom! They seemed genuinely surprised at the sharp looks I kept giving them.