Prom 73 (6.9.12): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra – Beethoven & Bruckner

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  • jayne lee wilson
    Banned
    • Jul 2011
    • 10711

    #31
    Unwell today so gave up at the interval...
    That taken into account, I felt from early on that they were going to play the LvB G major more or less as I thought they would, so despite the tonal beauties I felt unengaged. But this is why I now cleave to Brautigam, Schoonderwoerd and so on for a Beethoven experience...

    Caught Haitink's rather dismissive comments about the B9 finale... in a short interview in the programme he's rather less peremptory. Of course, he never recorded the Mahler 10 in Cooke's performing version either...

    Latest newsletter from John F. Berky (abruckner.com) is critical of what Berky sees as an "over-the-top" reaction to the Rattle Berlin 9th, he feels that the Gramophone and BBC MM reviews should have considered the history of the finale more, it's different versions and recordings, but still acclaims Rattle's reading and acknowledges it as significantly raising the profile of the complete work. He also felt there was too eager a tendency to suggest that the 3-movement version is passing into history or at least into a new perspective. I've not seen the BBC review, but I feel Berky's a little unfair if he has Cowan in mind, whose review (G. 08/12) is a model of balance which asks more questions than it answers.

    But I'm with Cowan in finding it harder - if not impossible - to listen to the 9th as a 3-movement work now - which doesn't imply disrespect for the great tradition of its recorded history.
    As I said earlier I wish most conductors would take it up and play it as a complete symphony all the time, for a few years - the interpretations would change, perhaps radically, and we could then see it in its true light.

    Still a bit too much reverence in the Classical Museum.
    Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 06-09-12, 23:34.

    Comment

    • cloughie
      Full Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 22190

      #32
      Haitink for the last 50 years has been good and solid and reliable! Exciting?

      Comment

      • amateur51

        #33
        Originally posted by Simon B View Post
        I can only speak as I find, so (tin hat duly donned)...

        If the Beethoven had been any more refined or restrained it would have disappeared entirely. All very transparent and so forth, but so self-effacing as to barely be there. Sorry, but, well, no. (Caveat - RAH acoustics may have accentuated this, maybe it'd be ok in a small hall or was on the radio).

        The Bruckner was a different matter. As you'd expect with Haitink, the sense of natural flow was there, no jarring gear shifts, and a structural arc extending from first note to last. Not badly played either!

        For all that (and no, this isn't my own attempt at joining in with the sarcasm above) I preferred Nezet-Seguin and the LPO earlier this year. Heresy, but there it is. Young man's Bruckner may be a bit paradoxical, but still...

        Nice to see BH looking in such good health. He's got several years younger in the last few years!
        Good to have your comment about BH's looking well, SimonB. A few years ago he looked awful & I was rather worried. He is needed

        Comment

        • amateur51

          #34
          Originally posted by cloughie View Post
          Haitink for the last 50 years has been good and solid and reliable! Exciting?
          I think Haitink 'live' has often been exciting. Why I've even seen him jump off the ground in Shostakovich

          He's become more 'exciting' as he's become older, like many of the greats

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          • Nick Armstrong
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 26574

            #35
            Originally posted by cloughie View Post
            Haitink for the last 50 years has been good and solid and reliable! Exciting?
            Yes, certainly exciting. I don't know if the sound engineers messed it up last night (judging by comments about the radio relay), but live in the hall, Bern was producing some of the most exciting sounds I've ever heard. And doing it with such economical means.

            The 'warning sign' is when he turns his left hand into a claw and shakes it slightly. What sounds are then unleashed!

            We were side on last night, to BH's left - incredibly lucky as that was ideal both to study his technique and also for the blended sound of all the brass and winds to lift off the stage and into our lugholes (not to mention the stunning timp player right round our side behind the violins, with his hard sticks - really tight but textured sound - wonderful).

            Yes - exciting

            (I haven't mentioned the Beethoven. Very much a 'chamber' feel... and beautiful... but uninvolving - plus a bit ragged in the first mvt and Murray P lost his way 2 or 3 times. I was listening to R3 on the way west, and was astonished to hear just before 5pm from Martin Handley in the RAH that the orchestra had only just arrived, were on stage but hadn't started rehearsing yet It showed in the first movement of the LvB I thought)
            "...the isle is full of noises,
            Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
            Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
            Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

            Comment

            • johnb
              Full Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 2903

              #36
              Originally posted by cloughie View Post
              Haitink for the last 50 years has been good and solid and reliable! Exciting?
              That used to be my view of Haitink ..... until I saw him conduct live some 10 years ago. Since then I have seen him conduct a number of times (mostly Mahler and Shostakovich) and every concert has been a high point for me.

              Comment

              • Barbirollians
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 11753

                #37
                How odd - the last thing I would have described that Beethoven as is self-effacing ! The only thing I felt it lacked a bit was some instrospection in the slow movement compared to their studio recording .

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                • Prommer
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 1260

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                  The 'warning sign' is when he turns his left hand into a claw and shakes it slightly. What sounds are then unleashed!
                  Yes, topped only when he really goes wild, when he coils up and then makes whole of his upper body shudder from side to side like a tuning fork, with arms (left claw included) raised aloft and vibrating... Nothing below the waist. Hips not employed at all. No hint of salsa.

                  Comment

                  • Alison
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 6470

                    #39
                    Very good decriptions, Caliban and Prommer.

                    I can't imagine what made me think the concert started at 7.30 but once over the shock

                    I settled into an outstanding rendition of the Bruckner Symphony.

                    An unexpected rugged quality indeed and no mere carbon copy of BH's last London performance with the
                    Concertgebouw in 2009.

                    Comment

                    • gurnemanz
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 7407

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Lizabel View Post
                      But at least we applauded when the two women appeared (and were nicely acknowledged). Will the VPO ever come in to the 21st century? Stunning concert, though ...
                      I agree with your comment and thanks for that info about the applause. I remarked to my wife on the welcoming applause for the orchestra starting up again for no obvious reason. We were sitting in the back row right up high (last available seats when we booked) and didn't catch that this was the reason for it. My wife was gratified to hear the explanation. I don't think the ladies played in the Beethoven and only appeared as auxiliary support for Bruckner.

                      Comment

                      • kernelbogey
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 5803

                        #41
                        I prommed in the arena for this - my first prom attendance for about five years! - and was rather overwhelmed by three aspects of the occasion.

                        I felt curiously unmoved by the Beethoven. I was about 11 metres back from the front rail and on the left (see below) and could just see Perahia's head - but nothing of Haitink. I've had a hearing problem in my left ear (previously my better side) for the last ten or so weeks (temporary, I believe, and due for serious medical attention shortly). I was shocked to discover how much this impaired my enjoyment of the live orchestra and piano - and was preoccupied with that for most of the first half. I barely have binaural hearing at present. Having said that, it's a relief to hear that others felt uninvolved with this chamber-style performance: 'conventional' was a word in my mind by the end.

                        I had a different experience of the Bruckner. Notwithstanding my irritating disability I was knocked out by the performance - the first time I think I've heard the ninth live. I'm struggling to put this into words here. Haitink's vision, and control, of the transitions from pp to ff/fff passages was masterful; the scherzo had a coherence I've often found lacking in recorded and broadcast performances; the finale was simply magnificent. I thought the brass outstanding (I'd never before clocked the Wagner tubas only in the third movement - sad that Haitink overlooked them in the section calls) and the woodwind too - beautiful flute playing in particular.

                        However, my final point is that I found the business of queuing, even in fine weather, then standing for the concert, more tiring than I had anticipated. I was tempted to make my second visit in five years tonight for the Vienna Phil, Haitink and Strauss by experimenting with my erstwhile youthful hangout in the gallery - but in the end Hampshire sunshine, and reluctance to travel for two hours in each direction, prevailed.

                        If the tall elegantly attired gent next to me with whom I chatted about completions of this symphony and Elgar 3 is a member I'd be interested to know...
                        Last edited by kernelbogey; 07-09-12, 18:08.

                        Comment

                        • AjAjAjH
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 209

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Alison View Post
                          Sorry, but not a patch on mark elder and the Halle in bruckner
                          Alison, are you being amusing, cynical or factual? I've never heard aperformance of or seen an advertisement for Sir Mark Elder conducting Bruckner. Have I Missed something?

                          Comment

                          • Alison
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 6470

                            #43
                            Originally posted by AjAjAjH View Post
                            Alison, are you being amusing, cynical or factual? I've never heard aperformance of or seen an advertisement for Sir Mark Elder conducting Bruckner. Have I Missed something?
                            Sorry AjAjAjH, I can have what Smittims once called a 'waspish' side.

                            Comment

                            • teamsaint
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 25226

                              #44
                              Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                              I prommed in the arena for this - my first prom attendance for about five years! - and was rather overwhelmed by three aspects of the occasion.

                              I felt curiously unmoved by the Beethoven. I was about 11 metres back from the front rail and on the left (see below) and could just see Perahia's head - but nothing of Haitink. I've had a hearing problem in my left ear (previously my better side) for the last ten or so weeks (temporary, I believe, and due for serious medical attention shortly). I was shocked to discover how much this impaired my enjoyment of the live orchestra and piano - and was preoccupied with that for most of the first half. I barely have binaural hearing at present. Having said that, it's a relief to hear that others felt uninvolved with this chamber-style performance: 'conventional' was a word in my mind by the end.

                              I had a different experience of the Bruckner. Notwithstanding my irritating disability I was knocked out by the performance - the first time I think I've heard the ninth live. I'm struggling to put this into words here. Haitink's vision, and control, of the transitions from pp to ff/fff passages was masterful; the scherzo had a coherence I've often found lacking in recorded and broadcast performances; the finale was simply magnificent. I thought the brass outstanding (I'd never before clocked the Wagner tubas only in the third movement - sad that Haitink overlooked them in the section calls) and the woodwind too - beautiful flute playing in particular.

                              However, my final point is that I found the business of queuing, even in fine weather, then standing for the concert, more tiring than I had anticipated. I was tempted to make my second visit in five years tonight for the Vienna Phil, Haitink and Strauss by experimenting with my erstwhile youthful hangout in the gallery - but in the end Hampshire sunshine, and reluctance to travel for two hours in each direction, prevailed.

                              If the tall elegantly attired gent next to me with whom I chatted about completions of this symphony and Elgar 3 is a member I'd be interested to know...
                              Glad you got to see this one KB....
                              You are right that promming probably makes a lot more sense for those within easy distance of the RAH, but it IS a great experience, but perhaps just from time to time.Hope the ear condition gets sorted soon...
                              Haven't heard this prom, but will try to give the Bruckner at least a run though.
                              I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                              I am not a number, I am a free man.

                              Comment

                              • Alison
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 6470

                                #45
                                I really hope the tall elegant man resurfaces, he sounds lovely !

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