Prom 63 (30.8.12): Berlin Philharmonic and Sir Simon Rattle

[salymap]

I intended to record last night's concert, plus tonight's but, shock, horror, they are not appearing on TV. Contractual reasons perhaps ?

[VodkaDilc]

I intended to record last night's concert, plus tonight's but, shock, horror, they are not appearing on TV. Contractual reasons perhaps ?

Perhaps they should have done a few Broadway arrangements!

I'm pleased to say I'll be there tonight, though the Choir seats (best they could offer on first day of booking) might show me more of SR's expressions than I need to see.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

What sound indeed! And I continue to be gobsmacked when people complain that the sound it too good, as though wishing it were inferior - thin and whiny perhaps. But then, some people do prefer that.

What a feast we have to end the Proms season. Two concerts with the BPO and Rattle, followed later by two more with the VPO and Haitink.

[amac4165]

Absolutely, Roehre, and for my money he would do well in the Ravel and Sibelius as well.

The huge opulence of the Berlin Phil in the hall was certainly something, but where was the tension? The segue from the Ligeti to the Wagner was impressive, but I heard none of the radiance that the Lohengrin Prelude surely requires. The Sibelius was certainly beautiful in sound, but this symphony should have a stark quality, perhaps a little peremptory at times. Everything tonight was smoothed over and plush. The last few bars should say " That's it, you can go now " instead we got a sort of sad fairwell.

Overall thoroughly "unfor-filling" concert the excellent playing only served to show up the weakness of the program - hopefully tonite might be more substantial.

amac

[edashtav]

The problem with criticising a performance of Sibelius 4 as too smooth, too plush etc., is the implication that there are only a limited number of possible interpretations.

With Rattle conducting, the star-child took control of the spaceship.

Yes, a child full of awe took control and rewrote the script. Having slept on it, I fear that Rattle "imposed" his vision, his programme, on the Sibelius.

Jayne, I accept that the number of interpretations is, like the universe, without limit, but surely, the number of "legitimate" interpretations is finite? When does an interpretation become perverse?
For me, Rattle bent Sibelius to fit his own scheme that pigeon-holed three works in the first half into an overall concept, maybe a conceit, that reduced the integrity of each work.

[VodkaDilc]

For me, Rattle bent Sibelius to fit his own scheme that pigeon-holed three works in the first half into an overall concept, maybe a conceit, that reduced the integrity of each work.

At least he can't do that with tonight's programme.

[amateur51]

Jayne, I accept that the number of interpretations is, like the universe, without limit, but surely, the number of "legitimate" interpretations is finite? When does an interpretation become perverse?
For me, Rattle bent Sibelius to fit his own scheme that pigeon-holed three works in the first half into an overall concept, maybe a conceit, that reduced the integrity of each work.

Whoa! Who decides on the meaning of the 'l' word in this context? Sounds pretty personal to me

As you say, Rattle had a 'concept', and it didn't work for you ... calm down, it's only a concert

[edashtav]

What sound indeed! And I continue to be gobsmacked when people complain that the sound it too good, as though wishing it were inferior - thin and whiny perhaps. But then, some people do prefer that.

No, I don't want thin, whiny & wiry, but I don't wan't everything to sound so bright and effortless. 30 years ago people ( like me?) would criticise some American Orchestras ( Cleveland SO / Szell) for sounding "chromium plated". Now, the BPO has a different sound -not plated, maybe the real 22-carat, solid Au deal. But sheer virtuosity can deaden music. Sometimes the struggle to play a phrase is part of its intended nature. Sibelius no 2 can sound warm - that's legitimate, there's a lot of Tchaikovsky yet to be expunged, but Sibelius no.4 has a more northern, harsher, masculine idiom. Rattle is a gentleman - I want less grace, please. I remember Howard Ferguson remarking that the Irish Reel movement of his Octet sounded better if the two violins were not quite in tune. Rattle would rectify that & wreck what the composer had in his mind. 100% accuracy is not always 100% correct!

[Nick Armstrong]

Whoa! Who decides on the meaning of the 'l' word in this context? Sounds pretty personal to me

As you say, Rattle had a 'concept', and it didn't work for you ... calm down, it's only a concert

I recorded the Sibelius - sounded pretty good to me on the jolly old digital wireless, beautiful yes but also trenchant where called for. I'll listen a few times.

And as we all know, Sir Simon's got a face ideally suited to radio when conducting



(I have to make an effort not to think of the gurning whenever I listen to anything he's done )

[Alison]

It's quite common and accepted to criticise overly virtuosic pianists who use the music as a vehicle to show off their talents. Strangely, folk are less inclined to accept the same principle in orchestral performance.

[amateur51]

I recorded the Sibelius - sounded pretty good to me on the jolly old digital wireless, beautiful yes but also trenchant where called for. I'll listen a few times.

And as we all know, Sir Simon's got a face ideally suited to radio when conducting



(I have to make an effort not to think of the gurning whenever I listen to anything he's done )

you shocker Caliban! Just do what von Karajan used to do when he didn't want his gaze to fall on the untalented - shut your eyes

Don't throw your recording away - I'll have it

[I'm good like that ]

[salymap]

I recorded the Sibelius - sounded pretty good to me on the jolly old digital wireless, beautiful yes but also trenchant where called for. I'll listen a few times.

And as we all know, Sir Simon's got a face ideally suited to radio when conducting



(I have to make an effort not to think of the gurning whenever I listen to anything he's done )

I,myself, personally, [as someone I knew used to say] prefer Rattle's gurning to Gergiev's dripping sweat everywhere.

[edashtav]

Whoa! Who decides on the meaning of the 'l' word in this context? Sounds pretty personal to me

As you say, Rattle had a 'concept', and it didn't work for you ... calm down, it's only a concert

Fair point - my bastard may be your legitimate off-spring.

[edashtav]

Concertgebouw/Haitink

Seconded

Of course, you're both right - they could well beat the BPO - and be more to my taste.

[edashtav]

It's quite common and accepted to criticise overly virtuosic pianists who use the music as a vehicle to show off their talents. Strangely, folk are less inclined to accept the same principle in orchestral performance.

That's a good angle on the issue, Alison.