Prom 50 (20.8.12): Beethoven, Mozart, Delius & Nielsen

[cloughie]

But all Mozart is bland! (ducks)

I am so pleased I haven't got your perceptive ears!

[Ferretfancy]

jayne

Applause usually starts in the rear stalls and spreads upwards and outwards. I have to admit that there were a few clappers behind me in the Arena last night -- not season ticket holders of course!

[amateur51]

No it's not.



And don't call me "ducks".

Well not without permission, eh ferney?

[kernelbogey]

.... Applause usually starts in the rear stalls and spreads upwards and outwards. I have to admit that there were a few clappers behind me in the Arena last night -- not season ticket holders of course!

Oddly and unusually, this radio listener was not bothered by the applause between movements of the Mozart concerto - it almost seemed appropriate. I wonder what was different about that in the Nielsen. From other threads it seems some conductors have been more successful than others in managing this (though not always to the pleasure of posters).

[aeolium]

I thought Michael Collins' playing in the Mozart concerto was superb - what a player he is! And it's so much better to hear this work on the basset-clarinet than the modern one - I find it hard to listen to performances with the latter now.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well not without permission, eh ferney?

... the select few.

[jayne lee wilson]

Oddly and unusually, this radio listener was not bothered by the applause between movements of the Mozart concerto - it almost seemed appropriate. I wonder what was different about that in the Nielsen. From other threads it seems some conductors have been more successful than others in managing this (though not always to the pleasure of posters).

Imagine a glorious sunset, then the dying embers, the dull red disc sinks slowly into the sea...
would you cheer and applaud?

In a concerto you acclaim the brilliance and poetry of a soloist, perhaps of the orchestra; in can indeed be apt.
Nielsen 5 (i) coda is great music - and something beyond music; to applaud it is to overlook, forget, or be insensitive to what it has to say.

[Osborn]

BBC Symphony Orchestra playing Mozart in the Royal Albert Hall: invariably a shade bland.

I know are inclined to judge the quality of a composition by the number of kettledrum bangs in the score & the quality of performance by the decibel level achieved by the drum banger, so are you saying the BBCSO kettledrums aren't banged loudly enough or that Mozart didn't write enough bangs or that the RAH swallows & diminishes the sound - which surely can't have any significant effect on a radio broadcast with mics on or near the platform?

[Vile Consort]

I always thought people who applauded between movements embarrassed themselves because they didn't know the piece, hadn't purchased a programme, and had mistaken the break between episodes ... err, movements :) ... as being the end of the work. Are they actually doing it deliberately, do you think?

[Alison]

I know are inclined to judge the quality of a composition by the number of kettledrum bangs in the score & the quality of performance by the decibel level achieved by the drum banger, so are you saying the BBCSO kettledrums aren't banged loudly enough or that Mozart didn't write enough bangs or that the RAH swallows & diminishes the sound - which surely can't have any significant effect on a radio broadcast with mics on or near the platform?

i am simply saying that the sound of the BBCSO, improved thought it might be, isn't ideally suited to the RAH especially in works of the classical period.
The hall does swallow and diminish the sound, you put it rather well ! Whatever you say about microphones, the orchestra sounds quite different in
the Barbican, to my ears at least.

I wasn't thinking of kettledrums at all in that post and fully acknowledge Jon Chimes as one of the best players around.

[Bryn]

I always thought people who applauded between movements embarrassed themselves because they didn't know the piece, hadn't purchased a programme, and had mistaken the break between episodes ... err, movements :) ... as being the end of the work. Are they actually doing it deliberately, do you think?

If they have any grasp of historical etiquette, of course they applaud deliberately between the movements of a Mozart concerto. To do otherwise would be a demonstration of crass rudeness, surely?

[Petrushka]

If they have any grasp of historical etiquette, of course they applaud deliberately between the movements of a Mozart concerto. To do otherwise would be a demonstration of crass rudeness, surely?

I'm a good deal more tolerant of inter-movement applause than I once was but I cannot for the life of me work out why we should applaud between the movements of a Mozart concerto just because they did in Mozart's day. It's a very lame argument imv.

[Vile Consort]

Surely if there was any grasp of historical etiquette, nobody who had ever worked for a living would be in the hall at all unless they were being paid to be there.

[Rolmill]

If they have any grasp of historical etiquette, of course they applaud deliberately between the movements of a Mozart concerto. To do otherwise would be a demonstration of crass rudeness, surely?

Bryn, I have seen quotes from Mozart's letters which make it clear that he expected and welcomed applause between movements, so I recognise the argument; but don't the same quotes also imply that he appreciated audience response and applause during the music - in which case, do you believe that it is appropriate to behave in the same way today?

To be clear, I have no problem with applause between movements - I'm just not convinced that the "historic authenticity" argument is as strong as it is sometimes presented.

[edashtav]

BBC Symphony Orchestra playing Mozart in the Royal Albert Hall: invariably a shade bland.

How true - but how infinitely distressing, Alison. We must start a movement : Listeners against Bland Mozart

I’ve just caught up with the first half of this Prom on iPlayer. I found the Egmont Overture a little prosaic, maybe a trifle too slow although the rhythms were nicely pointed by Osmo Vänskä.

The main interest for me was hearing Michael Collins using a basset-horn closer to what Anton Stadler may have used for the work’s premiere. I loved its chalumeau register – low, and dark - like black treacle. But, that very sugariness worried me higher up. There was a smoothness, a lack of bite, that diminished those moments of pathos that separate the genius that is Mozart from run of the mill classical epigones. Michael Collins sounded so on top of his job that I forgot that this is a virtuoso clarinet work. The feminine endings to many phrases were beautifully realised. Faster passages bubbled like fresh springs and sometimes, as another listener has noted threatened to rush ahead. Now, it’s probably my expectations – I was brought up on a rasping, reedier sound, but I found something missing. Michael seemed to skate on top of ice, his reed cut no furrow through it. No wonder the audience clapped his prestidigitation after the first movement, so spoiling my preparation for the heart-breaking Adagio that follows. I have to say that the repetition of the slow movement's main theme – ppp – showed Michael and his basset-horn at their best. It was meltingly beautiful and the softest "clarinet" line that I can recall being floated. I wanted the orchestra to join in and wring a few salty tears - but it was a bit wet. Oh dear, more applause followed – did some Prommers leave their sensitive hearts at home ? The Rondo passed uneventfully – I’d have liked a darker, more plangent quality to the central “C” episode that can give the movement a reflective twist. I can’t criticise Michael Collins’ smoothness and efficiency, but was I alone in wanting a more gnarly quality? Everyone let themselves go in Finzi’s bagatelle – but should this delightful English epigone have been more affecting that Mozart? No way!