Prom 48 (18.8.12): Weber, Mahler & Tchaikovsky

[Petrushka]

As for the coughing last night - it sounds ridiculous at times on the broadcast. Contrast that with the RVW Prom 2 days before. Snobby it may sound, but I suspect Saturday night audience syndrome. Tchaikovsky on the program, "just" the LPO doing standard-ish fare so tickets not snapped up largely by the most determined. Either that or ENT doctors in London should suddenly be doing a roaring trade...

Yes, you may be right about 'Saturday Night Syndrome'. Against that though there was no inter-movement applause. Whatever the reason, the Albert Hall management and the BBC between them need to tackle this problem. That nobody takes any notice of what's written in the programme book was made abundantly clear when the interval placing was amended at one of the Boulez/Barenboim concerts and half the audience walked out then sheepishly came back in again.

The coughing issue must be tackled and I would suggest an announcement from the stage much as I hate that kind of thing. The noise is disrespectful to the musicians, the rest of the audience and listeners around the world.

[Ferretfancy]

At the end of season forum for Prommers and others who wish to comment, there are always requests to the management to use the PA system to request audiences to refrain from coughing.
This request is always lamely refused on the grounds that it is an intrusion on the rights of patrons.This is in stark contrast to the attitude of the Royal Festival Hall, where at least they have an announcement recorded by Tim Piggott Smith asking for mobile phones to be switched off, and no photography. Audiences do not object to that, why should they complain if asked not to cough?

[Flosshilde]

Goodness, is it now a 'right' to be able to cough whenever you feel like it, without any thought for others?

[ahinton]

From the broadcast it sounded a similarly classy performance - with one major advantage in the shape of the RAH organ rather than the feebly weedy excuse for an instrument currently available in the RFH. I've read elsewhere that Tchaikovsky actually intended a harmonium. Anything is better than the tradition of lopping off the original "flawed" ending altogether, but I'm glad that the recent trend has been of historically disinformed performance practice via giving it some welly on a proper organ. Perhaps it isn't what Tchaikovsky intended but it seems to me to work very well to make the coda sound convincing rather than an ungainly afterthought.

To my mind, nothing but nothing can save the Manfred Symphony from its dismal coda or said dismal coda from itself - especially dismal given that, up to that point, the composer is firing marvellously on all cylinders yet again. The cynic in me inclines toward the thought that my chagrin at Tchaikovsky almost always getting it so right is at least afforded a little light relief at the prospect of him getting it so wrong at this point, if for no better reason that it does at least show that Tchaikovsky is actually capable of fundamentally misfiring, even if this instance, 1812 and his piano sonata are just about the only exceptions in his output when he does so (and even 1812 isn't as bad as it sounds)!...

[edashtav]

To my mind, nothing but nothing can save the Manfred Symphony from its dismal coda or said dismal coda from itself - especially dismal given that, up to that point, the composer is firing marvellously on all cylinders yet again. The cynic in me inclines toward the thought that my chagrin at Tchaikovsky almost always getting it so right is at least afforded a little light relief at the prospect of him getting it so wrong at this point, if for no better reason that it does at least show that Tchaikovsky is actually capable of fundamentally misfiring, even if this instance, 1812 and his piano sonata are just about the only exceptions in his output when he does so (and even 1812 isn't as bad as it sounds)!...

Thank you AH for finding the silver lining in the cloud that envelopes the end of Manfred. You're right : Tchaikovsky did get it right so often that this blunder makes him human and offers hope to us mere mortals.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh, but the ending of the Manfred is brilliant! I remember when I first heard it (Leeds Town Hall, 1981, the Bournemouth SO, Uri Segal) I wondered how the composer would "top" the Finale, which lets rip from the very start. Then everything stopped and the organ belted out its chord - I've never laughed so loud in a concert before or since!

[cloughie]

Sounds like one to catch up on - Alice followed by a proper Manfred - like the sound of that!

[David Underdown]

Yes, you may be right about 'Saturday Night Syndrome'. Against that though there was no inter-movement applause. Whatever the reason, the Albert Hall management and the BBC between them need to tackle this problem. That nobody takes any notice of what's written in the programme book was made abundantly clear when the interval placing was amended at one of the Boulez/Barenboim concerts and half the audience walked out then sheepishly came back in again.

Umm in Tge Beethoven/Boulez Prom the problem was that they moved the interval from where it said in the programme, and many people weren't given slips to explain the change, no notices were posted, and there was no announcement!

[Petrushka]

Umm in Tge Beethoven/Boulez Prom the problem was that they moved the interval from where it said in the programme, and many people weren't given slips to explain the change, no notices were posted, and there was no announcement!

I certainly had a slip in my programme and assumed everyone else had one as well. However, this was another case for the PA system to be meaningfully put to good use. Does anyone at the RAH/Proms management read these pages?

[David Underdown]

I tweeted the Albert Hall and BBC Proms accounts at the time (not that I got any response)

[ahinton]

Oh, but the ending of the Manfred is brilliant! I remember when I first heard it (Leeds Town Hall, 1981, the Bournemouth SO, Uri Segal) I wondered how the composer would "top" the Finale, which lets rip from the very start. Then everything stopped and the organ belted out its chord - I've never laughed so loud in a concert before or since!

It sounds to me as though the composer got to that point and said to himself "Oh, stuff this! I've had enough of it. Let's just have a "dramatic" pause, a fat organ chord and then wind the thing up as soon as possible and hope that, at best, people won't notice and, at worst, I might be forgiven to the extent that at least I'll have given that Saint-Saëns a neat idea for free when I could quite easily have charged him a lot of money for it!"...

[Extra Vaganza]

It sounds to me as though the composer got to that point and said to himself "Oh, stuff this! I've had enough of it. Let's just have a "dramatic" pause, a fat organ chord and then wind the thing up as soon as possible and hope that, at best, people won't notice and, at worst, I might be forgiven to the extent that at least I'll have given that Saint-Saëns a neat idea for free when I could quite easily have charged him a lot of money for it!"...

Would you say the same about Also Sprach Zarathustra? It seems to me that Tchaikovsky knew exactly what he wanted - a rude interruption (no stranger to these message boards) followed by a peaceful return to normality. Ascribing a composer's motivation for writing in a certain manner is, at best, a pointless exercise.

E V

[Alison]

Well said E V. Peaceful return to normality is just how I hear it, a rather tender and touching end to a masterpiece.

[ahinton]

Would you say the same about Also Sprach Zarathustra? It seems to me that Tchaikovsky knew exactly what he wanted - a rude interruption (no stranger to these message boards) followed by a peaceful return to normality. Ascribing a composer's motivation for writing in a certain manner is, at best, a pointless exercise.

I did presage my remarks with the words "it sounds to me"! - and no, I most certainly wouldn't say the same about the end of that marvellous Strauss work, but then its ending is so different to that of the Manfred that the thought of doing so would never occur to me in the first place! Strauss has the music almost evaporating until, having soared into the empyrean in tender B major sweetness until that tonality is suddenly undermined, albeit sotto voce, by a hint of the C major opening of the work and, rather like the conflict between music and words that was to become the stuff of his final opera Capriccio more than four decades later, neither ultimately "wins out" and the music is left in suspenseful uncertainty; it's a magical moment indeed. I think that I have already made it clear that I hold Tchaikovsky in very high regard indeed and the Manfred Symphony is one of the true high points of an otherwise star-studded career - until it gets to that point - and it's always been a matter of great perplexity to me, especially as Tchaikovsky usually know well how to end a work just as he does how to write the remainder of it, two of his most spectacular endings, for me, being those of the Sixth Symphony and the Piano Trio. I think that he can be allowed one misfire! - just as I can be allowed to differ from the opinions of others here as to the ending of that othewise magnificent work!

[amateur51]

Oh, but the ending of the Manfred is brilliant! I remember when I first heard it (Leeds Town Hall, 1981, the Bournemouth SO, Uri Segal) I wondered how the composer would "top" the Finale, which lets rip from the very start. Then everything stopped and the organ belted out its chord - I've never laughed so loud in a concert before or since!

Lovely tale, ferney