Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[FoxyTheCat]

Fair point Roehre.

Where I take issue with you is your apparent view that RVW symphonies do not travel beyond these Isles.

Unless of course you include the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Brazil, Hong Kong etc within the archepeligo.

For example, in Sao Paulo next year there will be 4 performances of N0.2 with a great Brazilian orchestra under their rising star
conductor. Just look at the RVW society website to see how often no.4 is performed in the USA. I could go on.

The main problem with RVW symphonies is in continental Europe, where although they get airings in Germany, are largely ignored
by the conductors of the great orchestras, Rattle etc. The young Russian conductors are more sympathetic however, Vladamir Jurowski
for example, is to conduct the 6th with the Russian National Orchestra.

Make no mistake his symphonies will not go away.

Regards

FtC

[FoxyTheCat]

I'm sure you're right, suffolkcoastal. But I would have thought that where symphonies are concerned, since they'll be performed in large venues and sets of parts need to be hired, the information would get through wherever the performance is taking place. I was just wondering why FoxyTheCat referred us to the RVW Society website, when that site doesn't actually give any evidence of the symphonies being more often performed in the USA than in Britain.

There's plenty of music by composers from every country that's underrated or ignored elsewhere. How often are the symphonies of say Albert Roussel or Karl Amadeus Hartmann played outside the countries they lived in? Probably no more than RVW's is my feeling (though I don't have the relevant facts at my fingertips so perhaps I'm wrong). This probably says more about the insularity of the listeners than about the insularity of the music. Personally I find his 3rd and 5th symphonies very beautiful, the 4th and 6th less so and the others not really at all. But then I'm writing this just after listening to the broadcast of John Cage's Concerto for prepared piano and chamber orchestra (written a couple of years after RVW's Sixth) which in general I'd rather hear than anything by RVW so I guess my opinion on the latter might not be taken very seriously on this thread...

Just count them up but do more than the 3 months you descended on and move to the 2013 year as well, Most of the non GB concerts repeat the symphonies on 3 nights at least

Look this isn't a popularity contest, I believe that when RVW's serious music is exposed to non GB audiences it has the potential to be as appreciated as much as say Sibelius, Nielsen,
Prokofiev or Shostakovitch that's all I am suggesting.

FtC

[heliocentric]

Just look at the RVW society website to see how often no.4 is performed in the USA.

Not even once in 2012 according to that site, so I don't really see what you're talking about. Anyway there's no reason for you to get so defensive - frequency of performances is not really an indicator of the "quality" of the music, however you define that. I know it isn't a popularity contest but remember it was you who started talking about how often RVW's music is performed.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I think it is impossible to know how many performances of RVW's music there will be this year, but then that's probably true for every composer. I agree about K A Hartmann, I'm a great admirer of the symphonies and I greatly prefer Roussel to composers such as Poulenc, and wonder why we don't hear more of their music. Incidentally only more small piece of Hartmann's music has been broadcast by R3 since the beginning of 2009 which really isn't good enough! I'm afraid I have little time for anything by John Cage (one of the few composers I do dislike), but then I like Carter, Sessions, Riegger and Cowell, as they say each to his own, and my tastes in classical music are almost as diverse as Roehre's! You're right abouth the insularity of many listeners, perhaps if more listeners were less insular, even more composers could be heard live and appreciated.

[Roehre]

Fair point Roehre.

....
The main problem with RVW symphonies is in continental Europe, where although they get airings in Germany, are largely ignored by the conductors of the great orchestras, Rattle etc. The young Russian conductors are more sympathetic however, Vladamir Jurowski for example, is to conduct the 6th with the Russian National Orchestra.

FtC, it is not by definition the conductors' "fault". One of the cycles I appreciate highly is Haitink's. The Concertgebouw orchestra however still has to play some of the RVW symphonies for the first time (Sea, Antarctic and 8 iirc).

[AmpH]

Is it available as a download, On spotify maybe?
http://www.classicalsource.com/db_co...ew.php?id=5403

ucanseetheend - the 1952 RVW 5th symphony is available on a Somm cd ( SOMM071 ) from all the usual suppliers - Amazon, Presto, Europadisc, MDT etc for around the £10 price.

Link to Presto

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Somm/SOMM071

[FoxyTheCat]

FtC, it is not by definition the conductors' "fault". One of the cycles I appreciate highly is Haitink's. The Concertgebouw orchestra however still has to play some of the RVW symphonies for the first time (Sea, Antarctic and 8 iirc).

Roehre et al.

Sorry if I have opened up an unnecessary and tedious debate as to popularity.

What I would like is opinions of (and maybe this should be another thread?)
as to where RVW's symphonies relate to and compare with other 20th century masters

FWIW I would list the following composers as the greats of the 20th c. symphony.

Shostakovitch
Sibelius
Prokofiev
Nielsen

+

VW


(Mahler straddles 2 centuries, we will keep him out of here)

[gurnemanz]

Roehre et al.

FWIW I would list the following composers as the greats of the 20th c. symphony.

Shostakovitch
Sibelius
Prokofiev
Nielsen

+

VW


(Mahler straddles 2 centuries, we will keep him out of here)

Shostakovitch (born 1906)
Sibelius (born 1865)
Prokofiev (born 1891)
Nielsen (born 1865)

+

VW (born 1872)

Four of those five also straddle two centuries and you might argue that Shosti is the most authentic 20th Century symphonic voice of that group, having been born and grown up during it.

Henze? (still alive)
Ives?

[EdgeleyRob]

Roehre et al.

Sorry if I have opened up an unnecessary and tedious debate as to popularity.

What I would like is opinions of (and maybe this should be another thread?)
as to where RVW's symphonies relate to and compare with other 20th century masters

FWIW I would list the following composers as the greats of the 20th c. symphony.

Shostakovitch
Sibelius
Prokofiev
Nielsen

+

VW


(Mahler straddles 2 centuries, we will keep him out of here)

If that's a league table Foxy,surely it's upside down.

[Pabmusic]

He takes his place with Elgar [and perhaps a few others ??] as the leading British composer of symphonies IMVHO It is difficult for people who saw him around the music scene to equate him with the greats but after 50 years without him he seems to be properly appreciated at last. Bless.

Quite agree.

[ucanseetheend]

Not as if the newspaper hacks views matter, here are some from the concert.
Ivan Hewett http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/m...ll-review.html
Martin Kettle. http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012...o-manze-review
Geoff Brown. http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical...rchestra-manze
Ed Seckerson. http://www.edwardseckerson.biz/?p=846 ( wow he has his own website)

[Extra Vaganza]

FtC, it is not by definition the conductors' "fault". One of the cycles I appreciate highly is Haitink's. The Concertgebouw orchestra however still has to play some of the RVW symphonies for the first time (Sea, Antarctic and 8 iirc).

Sea, Antarctic and 8.

Of the 9 symphonies, those are the 3 that I would not bother to listen to. Apparently I am not alone.

As regards Tippet, I would not mention his name in the same breath as RVW, but that is only my personal opinion.

I regard Bax as being neglected but would put Bliss as being a less important figure in British music.

My Brits list would be: Elgar, RVW, Walton. Bax and (just) Britten - in that order

I'm off to the shops.

EV (is there a symbol for "giggle" on this forum?)

[rauschwerk]

Not as if the newspaper hacks views matter, here are some from the concert.

These all refer to Manze's 'fast' tempi. It seemed to me that in No.4 (haven't yet heard the others) he was only going by the metronome marks and the composer's own recording. And he did that without any passages in the finale degenerating into a muddle. What it sounded like in the hall may, of course, be another matter.

For a great composer, RVW had a pretty limited musical vocabulary and it is to his credit that he didn't seem to repeat himself much. Even so, I propose to listen to these three symphonies on different days.

[heliocentric]

For a great composer, RVW had a pretty limited musical vocabulary

I think this is at the heart of my problem with RVW, although as I said I don't find it a problem with his 5th symphony (which, one could say, treats the issue as a solution rather than a problem). Going back to the 4th, so much of the discussion around it revolves around its supposed harshness, dissonance etc. etc. - now RVW may not have heard Varèse but he would have been living in a cave if he hadn't come across Schoenberg by the time this piece was written, so he knew the sound of music that really (for better or worse) isn't afraid of breaking through "social niceties" in order to achieve a more immediate and intense mode of expression. And yet RVW's stab in this direction is in comparison so tentative, so apologetic, so much in accord with the stereotyped image of the polite and uptight English gent that it's really no wonder it isn't played often in other parts of the world. A piece like this is a demonstration of the limitations I think Rauschwerk has in mind - if you stay within the purview of RVW's music it looks pretty extreme, but if you take a step outside you see the teacup that the storm is taking place in.

[Northender]

Fair point Roehre.

Where I take issue with you is your apparent view that RVW symphonies do not travel beyond these Isles.

Unless of course you include the USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, Brazil, Hong Kong etc within the archepeligo.

For example, in Sao Paulo next year there will be 4 performances of N0.2 with a great Brazilian orchestra under their rising star
conductor. Just look at the RVW society website to see how often no.4 is performed in the USA. I could go on.

The main problem with RVW symphonies is in continental Europe, where although they get airings in Germany, are largely ignored
by the conductors of the great orchestras, Rattle etc. The young Russian conductors are more sympathetic however, Vladamir Jurowski
for example, is to conduct the 6th with the Russian National Orchestra.

Make no mistake his symphonies will not go away.

Regards

FtC

IS Marin Alsop the 'rising star' to whom you are referring? People in the Bournemouth area might be amused at this description of their orchestra's former prinicpal conductor, who has also performed and recorded regularly with the LPO and the Baltimore Orchestra.