Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[Stanfordian]

One of the greatest Proms ever!

If Andrew Manze can step into the shoes of Richard Hickox he will be a worthy successor.

RVW symphonies need a champion or two, John Wilson is another young contender and Martyn Brabbins
is also excellent.

Of the older be-knighted generation only Sir Andrew Davis keeps faith, he seems to be conducting No. 2 all over
the place in 2013.

Rattle , very overrated IMHO clearly has no interest in the VW cannon

Colin Davis occasionally does no.6 but has been dismissive of RVW throughout his career.

If you glance at the RVW Society website there are more performances of RVW Symphonies abroad than here

http://www.rvwsociety.com/

Good Luck to Andrew Manze for the rest of the cycle.

I'm glad Andrew Manze has been receiving just acclaim for his outstanding performance of the 3 Vaughan Williams symphonies yesterday at the Proms. He has often been criticised on this board. I guess he has found it hard to get rid of the academic ‘authentic’ school of early music tag which was something he didn’t set out to do before meeting Richard Egarr at Cambridge. He said to me in 2010 that he had put down the violin to concentrate on conducting both as a guest conductor and as principal conductor of the Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra, Sweden. In May 2010 on the day of the Champions League final (when Bayern Munich lost to Inter Milan) I attended a concert at the Munich Philharmonie with Manze conducting the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra in a concert of English music: Purcell works for instrumental ensemble in orchestral arrangements (including 4 of his own) for orchestra and Britten’s Four Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes; the Sinfonia da Requiem and The Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra (Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Henry Purcell). Manze’s conducting of this all-English programme in Munich was superb. I wish him well and on last night’s evidence he seems really suited to large late-Romantic works.

I wish Sir Mark Elder would conduct more Vaughan Williams symphonies with my local orchestra the Hallé. He has of course recorded Vaughan Williams with Hallé the Lark; the Wasps; the oboe concerto and the London Symphony which I heard him concert on 3 occasions in the 2010/11 season and what a grand job he made of it too. I know Sir Mark has referred to Vaughan Williams as "the great mystic."

[teamsaint]

...but several may have equalled?

As good and individual as VW's are, I wouldn't say that musically they tower over, say, the symphonies of Tippett and Rubbra. VW's symphonic popularity - like Shostakovich's - comes from a directness of statement, and VW's evocative (filmscore-like) textures.

just in the big scheme of things, really.
there are other composers with fantastic bodies of under appreciated work...and no doubt including your two.

[teamsaint]

Well as a contrast to that TS my son who is 20 walked into the room and said what's this **** you are watching

I guess that he, like all of us, is on a journey !! My other two kids are certainly not in the RVW zone at this stage in their lives
!!
I'm glad you enjoyed it so much ER....like you,its been spinning round my head all day.
The last movement of of the sixth...I don't really have words for how it felt hearing that.

[RobertLeDiable]

RVW symphonies last night, John Cage tonight. There really can't be any more versatile orchestra in the UK than the BBC SSO!

[Flosshilde]

But: VW's symphonic popularity -unlike Shostakovich's- is mainly restricted to these Isles, I'm afraid.

If you glance at the RVW Society website there are more performances of RVW Symphonies abroad than here
http://www.rvwsociety.com/

?


Unfortunately I had to miss this concert - close meeting for the first half, & dinner during the second. I'll try iPlayer, but I've not had much luck with it in the past

[Serial_Apologist]

It was once said with absolute conviction that Bruckner's and Mahler's music did not "travel" well, being as they were felt to be "too Germanic". I have had friends in Germany over the years, all of whom doted on VW's music.

[FoxyTheCat]

No Roehre

They are played in the USA more than here.

Cast your mind to my previous post and you will find Symphonies being played from Sao Paulo to Hong Kong.


Vladamir Jurowski for example, is performing the 6th with the Russian National Orchestra, he is on record as
comparing the middle RVW symphonies with the best of Shostakovitch and Prokofiev.

If the Manze Prom does not convince you of his greatness as a 20th century symphonist equal to these great composers along with Sibelius
that is up to you.

The problem is we need a new generation of conductors willing to accept his greatnesss, it wont come from the likes of Rattle, Barenboim
Colin Davis etc. but the younger generation around the world are far more receptive.

[heliocentric]

Looking at the RVW Society website's concert schedule for the first three months of 2012, I see 65 performances listed in the UK as against 8 in the USA, 8 elsewhere in Europe and none anywhere else. If the count is restricted to symphonies there are 23 performances in the UK, one in the USA, one in France and three in Germany; which is more or less what Roehre suggested and what I would have expected. Not that these statistics say anything about whether RVW's music is "better" or "worse", of course.

[Tony Halstead]

I wouldn't say that musically they tower over, say, the symphonies of Tippett and Rubbra

You evidently wouldn't say it ( and of course that is your opinion which you are entitled to) but
I am definitely saying that ( in my opinion) THEY DO!
I feel privileged to have played on several of the Previn/ LSO recordings ( numbers 2, 3 and 9) and feel that Manze's interpretations were at least in 'that league' plus several extra insights - mostly rhythmical.

[EdgeleyRob]

One of the greatest Proms ever!

Well who are we to argue with Ralph's moggy.

[Roehre]

No Roehre .....

If the Manze Prom does not convince you of his greatness as a 20th century symphonist equal to these great composers along with Sibelius that is up to you.

I am not aware that I have even mentioned whether I think RVW is a great symphonist or not.
Please read posts carefully and don't interpret a fact regarding performances and opinions outside these Isles as my opinion re RVW.

[Roehre]

Looking at the RVW Society website's concert schedule for the first three months of 2012, I see 65 performances listed in the UK as against 8 in the USA, 8 elsewhere in Europe and none anywhere else. ... which is more or less what Roehre suggested and what I would have expected. Not that these statistics say anything about whether RVW's music is "better" or "worse", of course.

which is exactly what I observe indeed.

[Suffolkcoastal]

For performances of RVW's music outside the UK, the RVW Society's listings rely heavily on its overseas members reporting upcoming performances, particularly outside of the mainstream orchestras, so many concerts outside of the mainstream ones are simply not reported to the society. A considerable proportion of the UK events are amateur performances.

[cloughie]

As good and individual as VW's are, I wouldn't say that musically they tower over, say, the symphonies of Tippett and Rubbra.

I'm not sure what that means, but then those who are more musically educated than me might explain.

[heliocentric]

I'm sure you're right, suffolkcoastal. But I would have thought that where symphonies are concerned, since they'll be performed in large venues and sets of parts need to be hired, the information would get through wherever the performance is taking place. I was just wondering why FoxyTheCat referred us to the RVW Society website, when that site doesn't actually give any evidence of the symphonies being more often performed in the USA than in Britain.

There's plenty of music by composers from every country that's underrated or ignored elsewhere. How often are the symphonies of say Albert Roussel or Karl Amadeus Hartmann played outside the countries they lived in? Probably no more than RVW's is my feeling (though I don't have the relevant facts at my fingertips so perhaps I'm wrong). This probably says more about the insularity of the listeners than about the insularity of the music. Personally I find his 3rd and 5th symphonies very beautiful, the 4th and 6th less so and the others not really at all. But then I'm writing this just after listening to the broadcast of John Cage's Concerto for prepared piano and chamber orchestra (written a couple of years after RVW's Sixth) which in general I'd rather hear than anything by RVW so I guess my opinion on the latter might not be taken very seriously on this thread...