Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[Alison]

Kind of wish I wasn't fixated on this concert shortchanging us in the timpani department

following the woeful Bruckner 8 effort. I am expecting the splendid Mr Manze to demand more.

[Simon B]

Three RVW symphonies in a concert has been done before (albeit not at the Proms AFAIK). Shortly before his very untimely death, Richard Hickox conducted a complete RVW symphony cycle (plus other works) with the Philharmonia at the RFH.

If I remember right, there was a Sunday afternoon concert with symphonies 9, 6 and 5, in that order, with an interval between each. It worked very well (though he never quite seemed to connect with the 9th, as was the case again here). The 5th was a lovely, warm slightly melancholic performance somehow in sympathy with the cold misty November day outside, the sun piercing low through the clouds over the Palace of Westminster. Or maybe I'm just blethering. Either way, the point is that the three symphonies one after another didn't seem in any way fatiguing. It was more a case of, as I find with Wagner operas, settling into the composer's idiom/soundworld/whatever. The cumulative impact was thus greater than the sum of the parts.

Having said all that, I tend to agree that the combination of 4,5,6 in that order and with only the one interval seems less likely to work as well. But we'll see, won't we? A sold-out Prom solely comprising RVW symphonies is reason enough to be glad.

[Boilk]

A sold-out Prom solely comprising RVW symphonies is reason enough to be glad.

So it's fair to say that with these three symphonies, Vaughan Williams sold out

[Lateralthinking1]

Damn. Caught out by the schedulers again. I've been listening to the radio for nearly half an hour and have just read on the Sao Paolo thread that it is live on BBC4. Fortunately, not so fond of the foreboding 4th anyway.

[ahinton]

Could anyone help me here? I need (or think at least that I should feel a need) to find some way in which to dissociate my mind from an almost identical passage in the coda to Shostakovich's 4th Symphony (and in the same key, too) when I hear the opening (albeit in an entirely different context) of Vaughan Williams's 5th; I've simply never been able to do that. Of course VW couldn't have know the work, even though it was completed a few years before his, since the DDS was withdrawn never to be heard in its proper orchestral garb during VW's lifetime...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Could anyone help me here? I need (or think at least that I should feel a need) to find some way in which to dissociate my mind from an almost identical passage in the coda to Shostakovich's 4th Symphony (and in the same key, too) when I hear the opening (albeit in an entirely different context) of Vaughan Williams's 5th; I've simply never been able to do that. Of course VW couldn't have know the work, even though it was completed a few years before his, since the DDS was withdrawn never to be heard in its proper orchestral garb during VW's lifetime...

You might find it helpful to think of Poulenc's Concerto Champetre, instead? No?

[Flosshilde]

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that all the RVW Symphonies are going to be performed over the course of the next few years' Proms

Could well be - the BBCSSO & Manze are doing the symphonies over 3 (or 4) seasons, starting with the one just gone (4, 5 & 6). The 2012/2013 season has 3 & 9, leaving 1, 2, 7 & 8

[Tony Halstead]

the splendid Mr Manze

has achieved SPLENDID performances ( it's the interval now) of VW 4 and 5 and I'm looking forward to No 6!

[gedsmk]

has achieved SPLENDID performances ( it's the interval now) of VW 4 and 5 and I'm looking forward to No 6!

I was in bits during the slow movement of the 5th. the sound quality is magnificent even on my wee tv. Such Grandeur!!

[Tony Halstead]

Not just 'grandeur' but IMV a real understanding of the music's deeper undercurrents and 'subtexts'. Having played many times for Manze in the 'HIPP' context I am VERY impressed to see ( and hear) him doing wonderful things for the lamentably under-valued VW.

[JoeG]

Probably my favourite Prom ever - to have three such masterpieces performed so well in one concert (and a respectful audience who allowed the essential silence at the end of the music) is rare treat indeed. Well done to BBC 4 for televising this as it could have been deemed too specialist.

[Bryn]

Probably my favourite Prom ever - to have three such masterpieces performed so well in one concert (and a respectful audience who allowed the essential silence at the end of the music) is rare treat indeed. Well done to BBC 4 for televising this as it could have been deemed too specialist.

Shame about that big sneeze and whatever it was that was dropped though. Superb performances.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, a wonderful, indeed epic achievement from Manze and the BBCSSO here.
The almost extreme precision and clarity, the articulation at speed through the more dramatic sections (extraordinary 5(i) development!) was offset by clearly-phrased but intensely expressive slow movements and lyrical passages. The romanze from the 5th made you catch your breath, floating, crystalline, in the RAH spaces. Sometimes I felt the sheer bite and attack - and the fast, metronomical rhythms - left the music a little lightweight, missing some dark, leaden depths in the heavy brass, but (as with his Brahms set earlier this year) Manze's approach is his own, and wonderfully true to the music in its own way.

Shame to be critical about anything - but in the epilogue of the 6th it was difficult to tell just how quietly he played it as even on the HD AAC feed (which shouldn't suffer much from dynamic compression), I distinctly heard the hall atmosphere fading up near the start and very obviously fading down before the applause began (FM was much worse, even louder). I'd be very keen to hear from anyone who was in the hall about the level here - it should be pretty quiet, if not vanishingly so.

You may recall fhg and I had a fine debate about just this after Manze's Glasgow performance earlier this year - I felt it was nowhere near quiet enough (and certainly not "senza crescendo"), in the light of VW's own comments and other performances... but frustrated tonight by the balancer's approach to the epilogue,
I await reports from the frontline...

But orchestrally and musically - a magnificent achievement.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, a wonderful, indeed epic achievement from Manze and the BBCSSO here.
The almost extreme precision and clarity, the articulation at speed through the more dramatic sections (extraordinary 5(i) development!) was offset by clearly-phrased but intensely expressive slow movements and lyrical passages. The romanze from the 5th made you catch your breath, floating, crystalline, in the RAH spaces. Sometimes I felt the sheer bite and attack - and the fast, metronomical rhythms - left the music a little lightweight, missing some dark, leaden depths in the heavy brass, but (as with his Brahms set earlier this year) Manze's approach is his own, and wonderfully true to the music in its own way.

Shame to be critical about anything - but in the epilogue of the 6th it was difficult to tell just how quietly he played it as even on the HD AAC feed (which shouldn't suffer much from dynamic compression), I distinctly heard the hall atmosphere fading up near the start and very obviously fading down before the applause began (FM was much worse, even louder). I'd be very keen to hear from anyone who was in the hall about the level here - it should be pretty quiet, if not vanishingly so.

You may recall fhg and I had a fine debate about just this after Manze's Glasgow performance earlier this year - I felt it was nowhere near quiet enough, in the light of VW's own comments and other performances... but frustrated tonight by the balancer's approach to the epilogue,
I await reports from the frontline...

But orchestrally and musically - a magnificent achievement.

Doesn't the score mark the dynamics of the ending of 6 as never higher than pp? I read that somewhere. Somewhat off-topic, but almost all performances of the Third Symphony that I have heard suffer imv from excessive volume in the first movement, which is not supposed at any point to exceed mf. Though I can appreciate the temptation.

[Simon B]

From my seat in stalls H:

4th symphony, thoroughly nuanced, differentiated, intermittently almost ferocious enough, but ultimately not quite enough clenched fist. The lyrical moments of divisi strings were glorious though - as throughout the concert.

5th symphony, almost beyond reproach IMO. Essentially perfect bar craving just that bit more weight (timps, essentially) in the finale climaxes. The slow movement was painfully beautiful.

6th symphony, least satisfying of the three, but that's relative. Lyrical moments near perfect (that theme at the end of I!) but slightly more menace and ferocity would have been welcome elsewhere. The finale wasn't that quiet or slow and consequently missed the target slightly.

The 5th alone would be reason enough to denote this concert the highlight of the season so far for me, jointly with The Apostles.