Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed. I don't understand the Rattle/English music thing - is it that he should he conduct English music because he's English? Would the same be said for conductors from other countries? Or is it just a(nother) way of attacking Rattle?

I think Foxy's complaint (and apologies if this is wrong) was based on the idea that Rattle got his Knighthood "for services to British Music" whilst avoiding the work of one of Britain's finest composers. Perhaps Rattle's "Sirdom" would more accurately be described as being "for Services to the Musical life of Britain" (for his work in Birmingham) and for becoming only the second non-Austro-German to become chief conductor of the BPO.

Rattle has, in any case, a fine history of performing and recording British Music: Britten, Maw, Elgar, Ades, Tippett, Turnage, Birtwistle, Holloway, Maxwell Davies - and a little RVW and Holst. His general antipathy to the RVW I find as bewildering as does Foxy, but it's just one of those things. Maybe it'll "click" with him one day, and we can look forward to the BPO recording these works?


(And, if he's reading this [YOU NEVER KNOW!]: maybe La Terre est un Homme? Please! )

[Flosshilde]

Oh I didn't know about 'living treasures' what a marvellous idea

More info on the Japanese National Living Treasures - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_...sures_of_Japan

and the Australian version, which includes people from all fields. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austral...ving_Treasures

I'm not sure that Japan had a political honours system on a par with ours, or, if they did, if the Living Treasures system replaced it. However, I'm sure that GB, if it wanted to, could replace the present system with a 'Living Treasures' system

The honours system is a pointless anachronism and should be given the democratic elbow toot sweet, in my opinion.

It will be even more of an anacronism when the House of Lords is 'reformed' (or, preferably, abolished & replaced by a 'Second Chamber')



But we're now getting way off topic.

[heliocentric]

(And, if he's reading this [YOU NEVER KNOW!]: maybe La Terre est un Homme? Please! )

What makes you think he'd be any good at that?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What makes you think he'd be any good at that?

Wishful thinking?

(His contribution to Gruppen was pretty good.)




Besides, it's about time the Berliners performed something by Ferneyhough: a leading composer who contributed so much to German intellectual and cultural life.

[Boilk]

Rattle has, in any case, a fine history of performing and recording British Music: Britten, Maw, Elgar, Ades, Tippett, Turnage, Birtwistle, Holloway, Maxwell Davies - and a little RVW and Holst.

Didn't Maxwell Davies and Rattle have a fall-out some years ago, which might explain why SR has done little (no?) PMD of late? There was also that strange article in the Guardian about PMD's major fallout with Birtwistle many moons ago.

I found it most unfortunate that when Rattle's Decca recording of Symphony No.1 was finally re-issued on CD, the conductor's name eclipsed that of the composer...and I've never come across conductor and composer being linked by an ampersand, as if co-authors of the music! I suspect some shameless marketing executives had a lot to do with that, in the wake of his being appointed conductor of the BPO.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't know about Rattle, but PMD has a history of fallings-out with colleagues: in addition to the Birtwistle rift is that with Goehr. It would be very difficult to get a photograph of PMD and Goehr together these days.

[Barbirollians]

I cannot get my head round the idea of three VW symphonies back to back . The performances sound splendid but I should have flagged by No6 . I wonder why if they are going to programme them over the next few years why some of his concertante works could not have been slotted in too like the Concerto Accademico and Flos Campi .

[heliocentric]

Wishful thinking?

The reason I ask is I think conducting a piece like that (or any other orchestral music in a related aesthetic by various other British composers he has similarly never conducted) requires a certain kind of intellectual commitment that Rattle has never really shown, I mean his view of contemporary music is pretty middle-of-the-road in comparison to people like Eötvös or Tamayo, which probably hasn't done his career any harm.

What was the thread about? Oh yes. When I was getting to know RVW's symphonies for the first time, about six years ago, I listened to all nine back to back. The 4-5-6 sequence is actually thematically linked in ways it's much easier to appreciate when they're played in sequence, plus all three together come to about the same duration as Mahler's 3rd; so I don't really see what the problem is supposed to be, I mean if you like RVW's music.

[FoxyTheCat]

[QUOTE=ferneyhoughgeliebte;198655]I think Foxy's complaint (and apologies if this is wrong) was based on the idea that Rattle got his Knighthood "for services to British Music" whilst avoiding the work of one of Britain's finest composers. Perhaps Rattle's "Sirdom" would more accurately be described as being "for Services to the Musical life of Britain"


That is a fair comment, I don't doubt Simon Rattle's greatness as a conductor and as he has no affinity with RVW's music, he should not be expected to conduct it.

Never understood why the late Vernon Handley never had a knighthood, perhaps like Holst and RVW he refused it?

Like several others here I think the UK honours system is an anachronism.

FtC

[Petrushka]

Never understood why the late Vernon Handley never had a knighthood, perhaps like Holst and RVW he refused it?

According to Wiki he was appointed CBE in 2004 having declined in 1988.

[bluestateprommer]

In the end, perhaps 3 VW symphonies in one evening was too much of a good thing, if still good. The catch with listening to several in succession, if your brain is still functional, is that you really begin to hear the familiar RVW melodic roots and tics repeat themselves with perhaps over-much frequency, like:

C# F# D# G#
C# B C# F#
D# F# F D#

(I had to find a piano to plunk them out.) The strange thought entered my head that this resemblance makes for sort of an English equivalent to the Bruckner symphonies, except that I like the VW symphonies very much and have no sympathy for Bruckner, after repeated attempts with the latter.

AM and the BBC SSO did very well, if at times I found myself in some sympathy with Geoff Brown's review at The Arts Desk that maybe he was a bit too forward-driving at times. But it is indeed high time that the VW symphonies get programmed as a regular part of Proms and subscription season concerts the same way that Beethoven and Tchaikovsky are, as part of the overall repertory, rather than being featured in isolation as one-offs (if nicely so).

BTW, this review from the Evening Standard is to add to the collection, as it's been omitted that I can see from earlier posts:

http://www.standard.co.uk/arts/music/proms-2012-bbcssoandrew-manze-albert-hall--review-8056978.html

[Flosshilde]

Caught up with this concert this afternoon - superb, I thought, & the three fitted together so well that one would think that VW wanted them performed that way. I wish Manze & the SSO had done the same concert in Glasgow.

[Serial_Apologist]

Caught up with this concert this afternoon - superb, I thought, & the three fitted together so well that one would think that VW wanted them performed that way. I wish Manze & the SSO had done the same concert in Glasgow.

Me too, Floss; I agree, as I also do with those who nevertheless found No 4 taken a tad too fast in the uptempo movements and a little lacking in punch. In that respect I felt No 6 delivered on all cylinders; but the gem of the evening had to be the rendering of No 5, now thankfully downloaded and probably to be my definitive recording after many disappointments in this aspect or that passage from others in the past.

[amateur51]

Me too, Floss; I agree, as I also do with those who nevertheless found No 4 taken a tad too fast in the uptempo movements and a little lacking in punch. In that respect I felt No 6 delivered on all cylinders; but the gem of the evening had to be the rendering of No 5, now thankfully downloaded and probably to be my definitive recording after many disappointments in this aspect or that passage from others in the past.

[Tony Halstead]

even more