Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[heliocentric]

not particular to British musical life, but a feature of post-C19 musical nationalism

... which, of course, for various sociopolitical reasons, expressed itself differently in different parts of the world. Most of what we think of as the "traditions" around the British royal family were invented in the 19th century, which no doubt fulfilled some kind of need to anchor the British social order in history at a time when this was under threat from profound changes aas a result of the industrial revolution, while Hungarian nationalism on the other hand was motivated by a desire to assert a suppressed cultural and linguistic identity from within the Austrian empire. Developments in music would take place in these contexts. I know I'm oversimplifying!

[Boilk]

You seem to reckon that both too little and too much individualism are not good, so I was just wondering what is for you the right amount, etc.

Nothing of the sort ..."seem to" perhaps in your perception of the post. Individualism and quality in a piece of music are not mutually exclusive; the degree to which either is present is not dependent on the degree to which the other is (or isn't). I don't think I've ever ranked a piece of music's value based solely on how original it is, versus how satisfying it is to me as a musical statement.

[aeolium]

Are there particular social, institutional reasons for the conservatism of British music before the 1960s? In that there doesn't seem much influence by or attention to what mainland avant-garde (I know that's a shortcut) European composers were writing (I suppose Frank Bridge is an exception, but that some of his music is such an exception is striking).

Well, Britain was a very conservative country before the 1960s (apart from during the Attlee government), and in the early decades of the C20 musically much less well developed than some continental countries, I mean in terms of orchestras and other ensembles. But isn't the emphasis on Britain underplaying the degree to which what you consider to be musical conservatism endured widely across Europe, with plenty of composers writing tonal music with C19 forces (e.g. Strauss, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Nielsen, Pfitzner, Respighi, Puccini whose later operas were written after Schoenberg's first atonal works, Rodrigo, Rachmaninov, Kodaly - to name a few). Was it the case that the influence of the 2nd Viennese school did not really take effect until after the 2nd World War?

[heliocentric]

Was it the case that the influence of the 2nd Viennese school did not really take effect until after the 2nd World War?

In an international context that's true to a great extent, although in the prewar period the influence of Stravinsky's neoclassicism, for example, could be found almost everywhere apart from the UK. With exceptions, naturally. Musical conservatism at that time, as I would use the term, isn't solely a matter of not writing "atonal" music. You wouldn't call Shostakovich's music or Hindemith's up to the mid-1930s conservative, or Debussy or Janáček or Bartók or Messiaen, or Strauss before Rosenkavalier, for example, even though none of these were followers of Schoenberg.

[JohnSkelton]

In an international context that's true to a great extent, although in the prewar period the influence of Stravinsky's neoclassicism, for example, could be found almost everywhere apart from the UK. With exceptions, naturally. Musical conservatism at that time, as I would use the term, isn't solely a matter of not writing "atonal" music. You wouldn't call Shostakovich's music or Hindemith's up to the mid-1930s conservative, or Debussy or Janáček or Bartók or Messiaen, or Strauss before Rosenkavalier, for example, even though none of these were followers of Schoenberg.

Yes, I meant unaffected by a broad range of developments, innovations in classical music - not specifically serialism. Interestingly I read something on the critical reception of Bartók in the USA prior to the Concerto for Orchestra and there are several contemporary comments seeing his music as more 'difficult' than Schoenberg's. How informed that was by how much knowledge of Schoenberg's music I don't know, though he certainly had a greater reputation than Bartók.

Returning to British music, the influence of Ravel seems to be there in Vaughan Williams (I know he studied with Ravel). Some of Bridge's music I've heard (the 4th quartet?) seems fascinated by a kind of Viennese expressionism.

[Northender]

(Meanwhile, back among the simple folk... )
I've just watched the 5th and 6th, and thought both performances were tremendous, with a beautiful overall sound from the orchestra, who clearly shared Manze's view of these works and were happy to deliver it.
At times, the Epilogue of the 6th had me thinking of the Sibelius 4th. The sound (LG television/Freesat/Humax tuner thingy) chez nous was excellent. I also enjoyed the chat and features during the interval. The newly-bearded Petroc was something of a revelation. Simon Heffer's knowledge and enthusiasm came as no surprise following his recent spell on Saturday Classics. However, I'm not sure whether his statement that VW had shaken off Holst's influence can be squared with the fiercer moments of the 2nd movement of the 6th.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

VW is one of the composers I would take to my desert island, but I don't think much of this kind of programming. One VW symphony in each of three concerts would be much better, instead of cramming them altogether. It seems churlish to complain about such riches, but it's unimaginative, and somehaow reminiscent of the Mozart/Schubert-festes.

[Serial_Apologist]

Returning to British music, the influence of Ravel seems to be there in Vaughan Williams (I know he studied with Ravel). Some of Bridge's music I've heard (the 4th quartet?) seems fascinated by a kind of Viennese expressionism.

Ravel and Debussy - passages in the scherzo of the Sea Symphony, one of the lasst completed sections, almost quote directly from Debussy's "Sirenes" and "La Mer". In a way I think VW's fasacination for modalism, already partly in place before the Ravel, might have pre-indicated sympathies with French music, or at any rate Russian music. The opening of The Wasps overture has a strongly Borodinian feel... and there are decidedly whole-tone-based harmonies in the piece (prominently featuring the harp) that pinpoint Debussy, rather than Ravel.

Bridge's "turn" to Berg, especially, particularly in the Third String Quartet of 1926, strongly reminiscent of Berg's string quartet of 1910, is interesting. Unlike RVW and Holst there was no "sudden" reaction against Brahmsian/Wagnerian influences in early Bridge; from the pre-WW1 chamber works we see a grasp of adapted sonata form principles of the kind VW and Holst would have been glad to have being escaping from at that time. Vaughan Williams had effectively to build a new tonal language based on modalism (folk, Tudor and pre-Tudor music as much as Debussy/Ravel-based) to evolve the personal symphonic manner he did after ridding himself of Germanic influences (by way of Parry!) still evident in the Sea Symphony. Holst (interestingly, like his would-be pupil Britten) never managed to write a symphony or develop the kind of "British equivalent" to Sibelius which VW (and maybe Bax) succeeded in doing - although Holst did have a go at the end of his life, leaving the amazing Scherzo projected for a larger work. I think it would be unpresumptious to assume that Bridge remained faithful in mind to the Germanic tradition inherited from Brahms (and maybe he knew Reger's work), by way of Franck and Faure, and then tempered by the French impressionists. In Bridge';s case that gradually amassed blend lent a classists' solidity to his music that helped smoothe the way to the later, more radical language of the Piano Sonata, Third and Fourth String Quartets, lacking in lesser contemporaries such as John Ireland and Cyril Scott. As a follow on, Alan Bush, was an interesting might-have-been in this respect... but thats another part of an already overcomplicated story (by me!)

[Northender]

VW is one of the composers I would take to my desert island, but I don't think much of this kind of programming. One VW symphony in each of three concerts would be much better, instead of cramming them altogether. It seems churlish to complain about such riches, but it's unimaginative, and somehaow reminiscent of the Mozart/Schubert-festes.

I agree. I actually watched the 4th 'live' on BBC4, then caught up with the 5th and 6th, via my PVR, after what I considered a decent interval.

[amateur51]

VW is one of the composers I would take to my desert island, but I don't think much of this kind of programming. One VW symphony in each of three concerts would be much better, instead of cramming them altogether. It seems churlish to complain about such riches, but it's unimaginative, and somehaow reminiscent of the Mozart/Schubert-festes.

I would have agreed with you had I not attended this concert. As it turned out, this grouping was inspired and inspirational for the musicians and the RAH audience alike.

The proof of the pudding etc.

[salymap]

And we, who couldn't/didn't attent the concert have the chance to programme them as we wish. I am still waiting to hear no 6 whwn it is cooler. I must catch up with the interval talk too. Either way, a lovely concert.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, I meant unaffected by a broad range of developments, innovations in classical music - not specifically serialism. Interestingly I read something on the critical reception of Bartók in the USA prior to the Concerto for Orchestra and there are several contemporary comments seeing his music as more 'difficult' than Schoenberg's. How informed that was by how much knowledge of Schoenberg's music I don't know, though he certainly had a greater reputation than Bartók.

Schoenberg and Bartok were both "difficult" and crabbed (Goehr's word for AS) personalities; but Schoenberg got quickly involved in composition teaching - Bartok (who was by that stage frail) less so, according to my understanding - American film composers notoriously flocked to Schoenberg's classes to learn his "effects" (sic). This might account for part of the reason for the different levels of acceptance greeting these two figures.

[EdgeleyRob]

And we, who couldn't/didn't attent the concert have the chance to programme them as we wish. I am still waiting to hear no 6 whwn it is cooler. I must catch up with the interval talk too. Either way, a lovely concert.

Agreed.

[Stanley Stewart]

#224 Do catch up with the TV interval feature, saly, if only for the exquisite performance - library footage from the mid 70s - of John Shirley-Quirk singing 'Silent Noon'. A gem. For me, the whole concert was highly imaginative.

[JohnSkelton]

but thats another part of an already overcomplicated story (by me!)

Fascinating though - thanks S_A.