Prom 46 (16.8.12): Vaughan Williams – Symphonies Nos. 4, 5 & 6

[heliocentric]

What on earth has all this petty squabbling to do with a thread devoted to the life and works of one of Britain's best admired composers?

I think you'll find it's actually a thread devoted to reactions to the Proms concert on 16 August (the clue is in the thread title), which of course can go off in all kinds of directions and touch on a whole range of subjects, including in this case what we think of as "individuality" in a composer.

Your own last contribution brought in Gustav Holst, after all. As you mention he "was not a symphonist", but this again brings up the question of how important or relevant it is to "be" a composer of symphonies. He could easily have called The Planets a symphony rather than a suite, and nobody could have told him it wasn't (is it "more of a symphony" than Zemlinsky's Lyrische Symphonie or Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms etc.?). What is clear is that it's probably performed and recorded more often than all of RVW's symphonies put together. My understanding is that the influences between RVW and Holst ran in both directions and resulted from regular occasions where they discussed their work with one another.

[PJPJ]

Yes, the fade-up was pretty obvious, and led to a considerably different string sound and ambience in the closing minutes, which I think was quite a serious miscalculation.

I guess there's around a 5dB increase (that's quite a lot) ...........possibly because the twiddler doesn't know VW6, and doesn't read music.

While the overall level of sound quality is better this year than last, and some Proms have sounded well via the 320/aac feed, the BBC still produces results which should embarrass an amateur and a rookie.

[Northender]

What on earth has all this petty squabbling to do with a thread devoted to the life and works of one of Britain's best admired composers?

Why can't you start your own thread, under "Music Matters" or something?

"A load of Bolix" would seem to me to be an appropriate title.

Miles (and years) off-post.

EV

Soon after joining the Forum, I realized that any thread may, at any time, head off in any direction. On balance, I think this is a good thing, as I have learned some fascinating facts, and found my way to works and recordings of which I was previously unaware. (I've also learned some cracking jokes!)
You can, I believe, elect to have contributions on certain topics or by certain members blocked, but I just give the sort of post to which you're referring the quickest of glances before scrolling on. You soon get to know which can safely be ignored.
As a long-term admirer of the works of RVW, I have concentrated on messages relating to the performances at the Prom in question, and am looking forward to watching Nos. 5 and 6 on my PVR.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Very useful, AIC, thanks! This is what I reported hearing way back in msg.43, and you'll find there's a fade-down at the end of the epilogue movement before the applause begins. Haven't had time to listen again, but your measurements show it is still there.

Do you have a timing for that fade-down?

I've looked and listened for it and I think things do get quieter on the last last two/three notes but I can't be sure that's not how it was played rather than faded. If I apply an equal and opposite fade to the end as the apparent fade-up applied at 0'.45" it's not sufficient to make the level constant. That implies the engineers used a larger fade-down at the end; surely that can't be right?

Someone must have a copy of the score? Is there any diminuendo marking at the very end?

[heliocentric]

Do you have a timing for that fade-down?

I've looked and listened for it and I think things do get quieter on the last last two/three notes but I can't be sure that's not how it was played rather than faded. If I apply an equal and opposite fade to the end as the apparent fade-up applied at 0'.45" it's not sufficient to make the level constant. That implies the engineers used a larger fade-down at the end; surely that can't be right?

Someone must have a copy of the score? Is there any diminuendo marking at the very end?

I've only listened the one time, but my understanding is that the fade-down was made after the last played sounds, so as not to blast listeners with an extra 5dB of applause.

PJPJ, I wouldn't think the level-changes were the result of lack of knowledge or score-reading ability but rather a deliberate strategy, presumably decided upon in rehearsal, which may have been mistakenly overdone in performance. If it was deemed necessary to do something about the music's sudden drop to almost-inaudibility, I would have thought that a much slower fade of a maximum of 2dB would have been much less noticeable.

[JohnSkelton]

"A load of Bolix"

http://www.sklep.e-budowanie.com/image/data/producenci/bolix-materialy-budowlane.jpg

Elementy systemów Bolix i Bolix S, objęte Europejską Aprobatą Techniczną
System Bolix:

Kleje BOLIX Z lub BOLIX U do przyklejania styropianu*;
Uniwersalny klej BOLIX U do wykonania warstwy zbrojonej siatką z włókna szklanego*;
Podkład tynkarski BOLIX OP -zbieżny z kolorystyką tynku (dopuszcza się zastosowanie preparatu BOLIX O);
Cienkowarstwowe tynki akrylowe: BOLIX KA, BOLIX KA1.5, BOLIX KA1, BOLIX R, BOLIX RS, BOLIX TU;
Cienkowarstwowe tynki akrylowe z zabezpieczeniem przed agresją mikrobiologiczną BOLIX Complex;
Mineralne wyprawy tynkarskie: BOLIX MP KA15, BOLIX MP KA20, BOLIX MP KA30, BOLIX MP R25;
Mineralne wyprawy tynkarskie do malowania: BOLIX MP KA15, BOLIX MP R25;
Preparaty gruntujące pod farby: akrylową BOLIX N lub BOLIX T, silikatową BOLIX SG i silikonową BOLIX SIG;
Farby elewacyjne: akrylowe BOLIX AZ lub BOLIX AZ Complex (z zabezpieczeniem przed skażeniem mikrobiologicznym), silikatowa BOLIX SZ, silikonowa BOLIX SIL ;

System BOLIX S

Klej BOLIX Z lub BOLIX U do przyklejania styropianu*;
Uniwersalny klej BOLIX U do wykonania warstwy zbrojonej siatką z włókna szklanego*;
Preparat gruntujący pod tynki silikatowe BOLIX SG lub BOLIX SG KOLOR (w kolorze zbieżnym z kolorystyką tynku);
Podkład tynkarski pod tynki silikonowe i silikonowo-akrylowe BOLIX SIG KOLOR (w kolorze zbieżnym z kolorystyką tynku) lub BOLIX SIG;
Cienkowarstwowe tynki silikatowe: BOLIX S1 KA, BOLIX S1,5 KA, BOLIX S2 KA, BOLIX S2 R;
Cienkowarstwowe tynki silikonowe: BOLIX SIT 2 KA, BOLIX SIT 1.5KA, BOLIX SIT 2 R;
Cienkowarstwowe tynki silikonowo-akrylowe: BOLIX SA 2 KA, BOLIX SA 1.5KA, BOLIX SA 2 R;
Preparaty gruntujące pod farby: silikatową BOLIX SG i silikonową BOLIX SIG
Farby elewacyjne: silikatowa BOLIX SZ i silikonowa BOLIX SIL *) alternatywnie można użyć zimowych klejów do systemów ociepleń na styropianie BOLIX UZ i BOLIX UZB (biały)

http://www.budownictwo.org/artykuly,626,1,EuroAprobata_dla_systemow_ocieplen_marki_Bolix

[heliocentric]

A very polished reply John, but possibly even further offtopic.

[Northender]

Soon after joining the Forum, I realized that any thread may, at any time, head off in any direction. On balance, I think this is a good thing, as I have learned some fascinating facts, and found my way to works and recordings of which I was previously unaware. (I've also learned some cracking jokes!)
You can, I believe, elect to have contributions on certain topics or by certain members blocked, but I just give the sort of post to which you're referring the quickest of glances before scrolling on. You soon get to know which can safely be ignored.
As a long-term admirer of the works of RVW, I have concentrated on messages relating to the performances at the Prom in question, and am looking forward to watching Nos. 5 and 6 on my PVR.

Dear E V: Re. # 201, # 202 - if I may be allowed to quote from my own message: (They're having fun, let them be )

[An_Inspector_Calls]

On further examination, I think the fade down starts at about 8'.30", is equal to the earlier fade-up in size, and continues to just about the last notes. Removing this as well evens the sound level nicely.

Well at least Manze did a good job holding the dynamics of this movement!

[JohnSkelton]

I've only listened to no. 4 from the concert, which certainly sounded a committed performance though I don't have much to go on / to make a comparison.

What interests me about Vaughan Williams in a way I've not found with anything I've heard (which admittedly is patchy) of other "British symphonists" is that the music somehow sounds as if it is outside its own idiom, or has expressive reach outside (rather than beyond) its own idiom. I've heard all 9 but the one I find most striking is no. 3 which has a weird, hallucinatory atmosphere. Like nothing on earth or in the heavens is moving, but the clouds roll over the fields, shadows are cast. It sounds like a British pastoral symphony written by a Surrealist (or it does to me). None of the others has the same impact .

Are there particular social, institutional reasons for the conservatism of British music before the 1960s? In that there doesn't seem much influence by or attention to what mainland avant-garde (I know that's a shortcut) European composers were writing (I suppose Frank Bridge is an exception, but that some of his music is such an exception is striking).

[JohnSkelton]

possibly even further offtopic.

Possibly, yes .

[heliocentric]

I've heard all 9 but the one I find most striking is no. 3 which has a weird, hallucinatory atmosphere. Like nothing on earth or in the heavens is moving, but the clouds roll over the fields, shadows are cast. It sounds like a British pastoral symphony written by a Surrealist (or it does to me). None of the others has the same impact .

Are there particular social, institutional reasons for the conservatism of British music before the 1960s? In that there doesn't seem much influence by or attention to what mainland European composers were writing (I suppose Frank Bridge is an exception, but that some of his music is such an exception is striking).

I feel the same way about no.3 (maybe it's "VW for people who don't like that sort of music").

With regard to the conservatism, I wonder whether British composers in general were any less insular than composers from other countries, since the emphasis through the 19th century (in step with social changes of course) was so much oriented towards the emergence of national stylistic traditions... I'm not sure but I would think that English composers of the early 20th century were indeed aware of what composers on the mainland were doing (Elgar was a vociferous supporter of Strauss, for example) but they chose for whatever reason to write music as if they weren't, with a few exceptions.

[amateur51]

If I may return to the subject of Ralph Vaughan Williams for a moment:

I am surprised that the name of Gustav Holst has not appeared in the discussion on RVW's influences because I am sure that, although he was not a symphonist, his works must have had a great influence upon his contempories and not least upon RVW.

Does anyone have a view on this statement?

EV

Well only that Holst has been mentioned in posts 169, 170, 171 and 177, EV

[rauschwerk]

... there doesn't seem much influence by or attention to what mainland avant-garde (I know that's a shortcut) European composers were writing (I suppose Frank Bridge is an exception, but that some of his music is such an exception is striking).

As far as I am aware, the last British composer who was regarded as leading Continental trends was John Dunstable. Hugh Wood has rightly said, "crudely expressed...it takes 25 years for an idea to cross the Channel.From this delay English music has, on occasion, gained a particular virtue: the ability to draw new riches out of an apparently worked-out vein." He cites the Byrd masses, Purcell's viol fantasias and Elgar's Cello Concerto in support of this argument.

[JohnSkelton]

As far as I am aware, the last British composer who was regarded as leading Continental trends was John Dunstable. Hugh Wood has rightly said, "crudely expressed...it takes 25 years for an idea to cross the Channel.From this delay English music has, on occasion, gained a particular virtue: the ability to draw new riches out of an apparently worked-out vein." He cites the Byrd masses, Purcell's viol fantasias and Elgar's Cello Concerto in support of this argument.

I wouldn't be certain about the Byrd Masses, but Purcell's viol fantasies are consciously 'archaic', surely: other music by Purcell incorporates all sorts of up to date influences, reflecting the influences on Restoration London and the Court: Italian opera and instrumental music, the operas of Lully (isn't there a direct imitation of something from a Lully opera in, with some irony perhaps, King Arthur?). It wasn't so much leading trends I was thinking of as being so separate, or unaffected (apparently). I wonder if part of this is, as heliocentric suggests, simply not particular to British musical life, but a feature of post-C19 musical nationalism (how immediately influential on wider Hungarian music was Bartók? I wonder).