Prom 43 (14.8.12): Delius, Saint-Saëns & Tchaikovsky

[french frank]

Morning, EV - and welcome. No need to retire into the background - if people disagree with you, they'll let you know!

And thanks to IGI for the review - well worth reading.

BBC critic KD has tweeted: Great performance of tchaik 5. Fab prom. Roof off! . Verbatim . Compare with: 'Is this the dullest, least alive performance of Tchaikovsky 5 imaginable ? My goodness me, a shocker.'

[amac4165]

Gave up at the interval I'm afraid...

What a contrast to the dazzling virtuosity of Malkki and the Philharmonia last night!

Indeed - in the hall the gulf was very noticeable ! Well for those of us who were actually there on Monday night - not that I am noting names or anything

To be honest the Delius was not up to much whoever was going to play it and clearly not much effort had gone into it. The Saint-Saens sounded ok in the hall as Dutoit largely kept the orchestra out of the mix for most of the time leaving young Mr Grosvenor to tickle the old ivories . Which is as far I as I can see the best option for this and all other Saint-Saens piano concertos

Tchaikovsky 5 was "acceptable" in the hall - but no more.

All well that's how it goes some days

amac

[BBMmk2]

I liked the way BG played the Saint Saens, actually. But the orchestra lacked somewhat inthe /tchaikovskly. Certainly the horn solo in the slow movements. And they did'nt adhere to much in the way of the dynamcs of this music either.

[amateur51]

I was at the Hall last evening, substituting for some friends one of whom has to go in for a heart operation this morning. Good luck Chris!

The Hall was pretty full and pretty warm too - there was much wafting of programmes from the start and I was amazed to see how many backlit phones I could see from the upper circle.

Dutoit is now 75, just hitting his stride in the life of many conductors and he still looks pretty sionc as he drifts to the podium. However it was a matter of some hilarity to your correspondent that even at his advanced years his hair is still immaculately uniform in colour - last night it was the shade that Victoria Wood made famous as 'conker'. The incipient bald patch at the back which I'd noted a few years back had disappeared last night. These are things that you notice from the upper circle.

The Delius started and it finished. I can remember very little about it and I am quite prepared to acknowledge that this is probably at least 80% down to me. I'm 60 and I'm still trying with Delius' music but Paris did not do it for nme. It did not evoke the city in any way like Cockaigne evokes London, to my ears. Not unpleasant just .. messy.

Like many concert-goers of my vintage I remember a time when Saint-Saëns' piano concerto no 2 was a concert favourite but I realise that I haven't heard it for years. Ben Grosvenor was the stylish soloist in-a-hurry, his hair more mop-toppy that previously and he was wearing a very striking scarlet shirt. He showed some patience with Dutoit at the start but once he was given his head he let rip, sacrificing a certain accuracy it has to be said but it was fun. The tarantella took off like a rocket and I wouldn't be surprised if Dutoit was a little taken aback initially. Grosvenor got a big bear-hug from Dutoit on the podium still, and Ben took several solo bows before giving us a Saint-Saëns encore, Le cygne but decorated by Godowsky. It thus wasn't as lush or as simple as we know it but I quite liked the astringency it offered, a palate-cleanser perhaps.

After the interval it was Tchaikovsky symphony no 5. It started very slowly, almost lethargically and took a long time to get going. Dutoit has never been one of the great cuers of conducting but things have been refined to major gestures - he wants to indicate an instrumental solo? His left arm goes up like he's hailing a cab. There's a lot of generating rhythm with his torso and speed by bending his knees and crouching and he uses a very generalised left arm up, right arm down gesture like the arms of a set of scales, plus sudden swirls from the hips that make his coat-tails flare out - are you getting the picture? The slow movement was beautifully done but beauty was really all there was, no sub-text in the overall argument.

In the last movement I gradually noticed another conductor on the platform. The leader had started swaying about and using magnified head gestures and suddenly the performance took off. The orchestra seemed to awaken from its corporate slumber and they really went to town, with some exciting playing from all. The audience loved it & so did I but I did feel that the leader must take a bow too.

[Ferretfancy]

I feel that some may not appreciate that Paris is an early work in which the influence of Richard Strauss is quite strong, so in that respect Dutoit's approach was quite correct. When I spoke of noisy climaxes I was referring to the fact that a great deal is going on in them, and if the right strands do not tell the result is confusion, and this was the effect from where I was standing. Beecham or Mackerras understood this better than Dutoit, I feel. Perhaps their recordings have spoiled me.

[amateur51]

I feel that some may not appreciate that Paris is an early work in which the influence of Richard Strauss is quite strong, so in that respect Dutoit's approach was quite correct. When I spoke of noisy climaxes I was referring to the fact that a great deal is going on in them, and if the right strands do not tell the result is confusion, and this was the effect from where I was standing. Beecham or Mackerras understood this better than Dutoit, I feel. Perhaps their recordings have spoiled me.

Thanks Ferret - I shall seek them out, perhaps on Spotify/youtube

I see now that others have posted about this concert earlier and more eruditely than I - apologies if I went on a bit

[PJPJ]

I feel that some may not appreciate that Paris is an early work in which the influence of Richard Strauss is quite strong, so in that respect Dutoit's approach was quite correct. When I spoke of noisy climaxes I was referring to the fact that a great deal is going on in them, and if the right strands do not tell the result is confusion, and this was the effect from where I was standing. Beecham or Mackerras understood this better than Dutoit, I feel. Perhaps their recordings have spoiled me.

I agree, but would go further - no-one in my experience of concert and studio performances sets up the dynamics nearly as successfully as Beecham does. His Columbia recording is gripping, I think, like no other.

[PJPJ]

Thanks Ferret - I shall seek them out, perhaps on Spotify/youtube

I see now that others have posted about this concert earlier and more eruditely than I - apologies if I went on a bit

No apology needed whatsoever! I enjoyed reading your account very much.

[salymap]

No apology needed whatsoever! I enjoyed reading your account very much.

I did also, well done ams51, an erudite music critic added to all your other talents

I'm going to try the old Proms lists to see who used to play that concerto a lot.Could be Moura Lympany, Eileen Joyce, even Evonne Arnaud [sp]. Good to hear it again, fast or not.

[Stanley Stewart]

Ah, saly, Yvonne Arnaud, so versatile and such a refreshing artist; actress, pianist and raconteur. Your timely reminder directed me towards my vinyl collection. A 1958 mono recording where, with typical generosity, she dedicated the proceeds of the sales to the building of the theatre in her name at Guildford.

Side 1: Sir John Barbirolli introducing her performances of Valse Caprice (Saint-Saens)
with him conducting.
Impromptu - Lucien Wurmser (piano solo)
In der Nacht- Schumann (piano solo) La Fileuse-Raff: JB and String Orchestra
Freddy Grisewood (memories of Any Questions, saly?) introducing:
A scene from "Traveller's Joy" with the lady herself and Charles Victor. I remember
this long running production at the Criterion Theatre. PS Charles Victor can be seen
in a welcome repeat of "Way To The Stars" on BBC 2, Sunday 19 August 2.25-4.15pm.

Side 2. Freddy Grisewood introducing Yvonne Arnaud talking then performing
Bach, Chopin, Scarlatti, Debussy and Duvernoy.

The bewitching cover photo of Y.A. by Houston Rogers. Sincere apologies for derailing the thread!

[Elion]

I just caught the Saint-Saens and thought it a pretty exciting performance in the outer movements.

Great soloist, shame about the orchestra (and conductor), which were intermittently behind the beat or woozy in ensemble. This review puts it rather well: http://jessicamusic.blogspot.co.uk/ I was fortunate in hearing Grosvenor play the same concerto with the Minnesota Orchestra under Andrew Litton last month. Now that's a first class band, which had no trouble in playing with the kind of lithe finesse that Grosvenor's highly nuanced, rhapsodic playing deserved. Elion

[salymap]

d

Ah, saly, Yvonne Arnaud, so versatile and such a refreshing artist; actress, pianist and raconteur. Your timely reminder directed me towards my vinyl collection. A 1958 mono recording where, with typical generosity, she dedicated the proceeds of the sales to the building of the theatre in her name at Guildford.

Side 1: Sir John Barbirolli introducing her performances of Valse Caprice (Saint-Saens)
with him conducting.
Impromptu - Lucien Wurmser (piano solo)
In der Nacht- Schumann (piano solo) La Fileuse-Raff: JB and String Orchestra
Freddy Grisewood (memories of Any Questions, saly?) introducing:
A scene from "Traveller's Joy" with the lady herself and Charles Victor. I remember
this long running production at the Criterion Theatre. PS Charles Victor can be seen
in a welcome repeat of "Way To The Stars" on BBC 2, Sunday 19 August 2.25-4.15pm.

Side 2. Freddy Grisewood introducing Yvonne Arnaud talking then performing
Bach, Chopin, Scarlatti, Debussy and Duvernoy.

The bewitching cover photo of Y.A. by Houston Rogers. Sincere apologies for derailing the thread!

Glad I reminded you of a great lady, even though I mis-spelt her name, Stanley. I remember visiting the church where she is buried, at the top of a steep hill, near Guildford.

[Extra Vaganza]

I was at the Hall last evening, substituting for some friends one of whom has to go in for a heart operation this morning. Good luck Chris!


After the interval it was Tchaikovsky symphony no 5. It started very slowly, almost lethargically and took a long time to get going. Dutoit has never been one of the great cuers of conducting but things have been refined to major gestures - he wants to indicate an instrumental solo? His left arm goes up like he's hailing a cab. There's a lot of generating rhythm with his torso and speed by bending his knees and crouching and he uses a very generalised left arm up, right arm down gesture like the arms of a set of scales, plus sudden swirls from the hips that make his coat-tails flare out - are you getting the picture? The slow movement was beautifully done but beauty was really all there was, no sub-text in the overall argument.

In the last movement I gradually noticed another conductor on the platform. The leader had started swaying about and using magnified head gestures and suddenly the performance took off. The orchestra seemed to awaken from its corporate slumber and they really went to town, with some exciting playing from all. The audience loved it & so did I but I did feel that the leader must take a bow too.

Well that is very interesting, because in my message, I wrote:

" ... The symphony was too quiet in the opening for me and I thought the tuning of the solo clarinet was suspect. "Statictissimo" is how I would describe some of Duthoits passages in the first two movements, but it got better thereafter - suggesting to me that the orchestra decided to take over and get the whole thing wrapped up."

... and I wasn't there - I just sensed it.



EV

[Sir Monty Golfear]

In the hall the Tchaikovsky got off to a dull start from which it never really recovered, although the last movement wasn't bad. Dutoit seemed to be working hard but the orchestra seemed unresponsive. This is not my favourite Tchaikovsky symphony, but I've heard many finer performances at Proms on other occasions. The Saint-Saens was riveting, and I enjoyed the chance to hear a live performance of Paris, but it did clearly show the difficulty of clarifying Delius's noisy climaxes.
I simply cannot agree with Jayne about the Malkki performance with the Philharmonia last night. From their foursquare performance of the Prokofiev I had the feeling that might has well have been giving it a quick run through - very disappointing. I draw a veil over the new work.

I must agree ...I found the Saint-Saens riveting too. The balance of the piano on the broadcast was recessed and lacked presence . Luckily Benjamin Grosvenor shone through with his usual style and involving musicality.

[Sir Monty Golfear]

My thoughts on Prom 43 are now up on Classical Source: http://www.classicalsource.com/db_co...w.php?id=10379

I felt the Tchaikovsky got better as it went on, but the opening really limped along. The Saint-Saëns did lack sparkle, especially in the second movement, although Grosvenor was tender and poetic in the recit like passages of the first.

I found that Benjamin Grosvenor brought something very special to the second movement with the limpid tone and beautifully pointed phrasing.