Prom 41 (12.8.12): Schoenberg – Gurrelieder

**Barbirollians** · 12-08-12, 18:52

Why three gigantic choral works in a row ?

**Flosshilde** · 12-08-12, 19:58

Why not?

They are three very different works. You might as well ask why have works for a symphony orchestra three nights in a row.

**Barbirollians** · 12-08-12, 21:10

To me it is a complete turn off to have to listen to three lengthy choral works in three evenings no matter that they are from different eras. Poor programming .

**EnemyoftheStoat** · 12-08-12, 21:27

Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post

To me it is a complete turn off to have to listen to three lengthy choral works in three evenings no matter that they are from different eras. Poor programming .

Maybe 15 minutes out of 100 involve chorus. Major work yes, but choral?

**ahinton** · 12-08-12, 21:28

Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post

To me it is a complete turn off to have to listen to three lengthy choral works in three evenings no matter that they are from different eras. Poor programming .

I'm sorry (if indeed I have to be, which I'm far from sure about) but Flossie is absolutely right here. Does anyone here believe that he/she might have a tenable argument against the notion of having three successive orchestral concerts in the Proms and, if not (which is surely the case, as that kind of thing's been going on ever since the Proms began), is it not appropriate to put up and (well, you know the other two words)?

The Schönberg (for that's how his surname was spelt at his birth and he didn't change it until long aftger the already much-delayed world première of the work on tonight's programme) is one of the great choral/orchestral masterpieces of all time, the composer's super-subtle deployment of those unprecedently vast orchestral forces being more notable for their restraint and sensitivity than for the slightest sense of megalomania and almost putting Mahler and Strauss in the shade in terms of sheer brilliance in handling of the medium; the life-affirming Die Sonne with which it closes is one of the few sections in that work in which the full forces available are unleashed.

In addition to the more obvious Wagnerian influences, there are so many Elgarian moments in the piece as to make me wonder whether Elgar attended its UK première in London in the mid-1920s when it was conducted by the composer - and what he might have thought of it; anyone here know anything about that?...

**ahinton** · 12-08-12, 21:28

Originally posted by EnemyoftheStoat View Post

Maybe 15 minutes out of 100 involve chorus. Major work yes, but choral?

Indeed!

**PJPJ** · 12-08-12, 22:12

Of all the Proms so far, this is the one which I'd have liked to have been able to attend more than any other. Sounded quite glorious at home.

**euthynicus** · 13-08-12, 00:42

Originally posted by ahinton View Post

In addition to the more obvious Wagnerian influences, there are so many Elgarian moments in the piece as to make me wonder whether Elgar attended its UK première in London in the mid-1920s when it was conducted by the composer - and what he might have thought of it; anyone here know anything about that?...

Ah yes. I wish I did know more. Have we any record of how EE reacted to AS, period? Bb718-720 of Part 1 (segue between Tove's and Waldemar's last songs) is the most obviously Elgarian passage, isn't it? But then the whole score is a past, present and future of German music. The Wood-Dove sounds like Kundry (rather than the perhaps to be expected Brangaene) and yet is accompanied by an orchestra playing along to Klytemnestra, a full four years before Strauss wrote it himself. The string slides at 1013 (finden sie nicht - has the waterclock not run down yet?) and then the extraordinary woodwinds at 1027 (ein einzige Fackel) like ravens pecking at her soul.

And wasn't the performance fine? Boulezian in clarity and no-nonsense dramatic ear for the times when you have to let the big moments have their head. If only Boulez had been prepared (in his recording) to believe in the tempo markings, which Saraste did, almost scrupulously. I wish Klaus-Narr had been in greater command of his part (no one has matched Langridge there) but the others could hardly be faulted. It was a huge thrill to hear Waldemar sung with all the notes, open-throated, if without the grizzled bitterness that perhaps only age and a few more Siegfrieds can bring. A great experience, pretty much up there with Troyens, and a cleansing experience after some recent disappointing evenings.

**Roehre** · 13-08-12, 08:20

Originally posted by euthynicus View Post

....The Wood-Dove sounds like Kundry (rather than the perhaps to be expected Brangaene) and yet is accompanied by an orchestra playing along to Klytemnestra, a full four years before Strauss wrote it himself..

Not that straightforward, as this is the part of Gurrelieder which was revised and orchestrated in 1912, well after Strauss had composed and premiered Elektra.

**Northender** · 13-08-12, 09:24

Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post

To me it is a complete turn off to have to listen to three lengthy choral works in three evenings no matter that they are from different eras. Poor programming .

I feel exactly the same way about three VW symphonies, which is why I shall record the Prom in question and watch it in a more digestible form.

**Flosshilde** · 13-08-12, 09:33

What I heard was wonderful - I'll have to make sure that I can listen to the repeat in about two weeks time (I wonder why the longer than usual wait - concerts are usually repeated the following week?)

**BBMmk2** · 13-08-12, 10:27

I am going to hear this on ipl;ayer and Elgar's Apostles conducted by /sir Mark Elder, has made this work toi have more meaning to what other conductors have and I will listen tom this again and catch up also on iplayer the Berlioz ~Grande Messe des Morts andf Schoenberg's Gurrlieder. All these works makes for some appetising listening, imo.

**rank_and_file** · 13-08-12, 11:48

I have to say I agree with Barbirollians on his poor programming comment, and entirely agree with Nortender’s comment about 3 VW symphonies one after the other!

For the concert I gave up listening in FM with the Optimod compression, and listen via the HD stream. Most certainly my ears were opened - a very much superior listening experience with a frequency range and dynamics close to a CD. At least I have learnt how to listen to R3 Concerts in the future.

Quite enjoyed the performance, which seemed rather under-rehearsed. After he warmed up Simon O’Neill sang very well and was my pick of the soloists. Felt sorry for Wolfgang Schone as the Speaker as many of us have fond memories of Hans Hotter showing how it should be done! (I see he took that role in a 1994 Prom).

Off thread, but EA in post 1 notes Jiri Belohlavek as the conductor, then says it is Sareste. I note that the former is to give up as chief conductor at the end of these Proms. BBC politics?

**EnemyoftheStoat** · 13-08-12, 12:02

Originally posted by rank_and_file View Post

Off thread, but EA in post 1 notes Jiri Belohlavek as the conductor, then says it is Sareste. I note that the former is to give up as chief conductor at the end of these Proms. BBC politics?

No, end of contract and JB is taking the the principal conductor post at the Czech Phil.

No political aspect to Saraste's stepping in for this one (or Oramo's for an earlier Prom), purely health reasons.

Prom 41 (12.8.12): Schoenberg – Gurrelieder

Prom 41 (12.8.12): Schoenberg – Gurrelieder

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