Prom 35 (9.8.12): Sibelius, Delius, Grieg & Nørgård

[heliocentric]

To return to polystylism, heliocentric, I understand what you're saying but is not Schnittke's polystylism much greater than those overt, distorted quotations? Many pieces bend styles without their precursors being quoted; the piece, or the passage, is informed by one style or another.

True. I'm on slightly thin ice with Schnittke because I don't know his work so well.

[Ferretfancy]

edashtav

Listeners at home may have had an advantage in that the discussion was edited to fit the twenty minute interval. Unfortunately, as you probably know, the acoustic in the hall at the RCM is very poor for speech, and musical examples sound very boxy over the loudspeakers. The poor young man wrestling with the sound reinforcement has a really hard time, and for all his efforts it can be very hard to hear what contributors are saying at times. The recorded comments by Norgard sounded particularly poor. I'll try to catch it on iPlayer over the weekend.

[edashtav]

edashtav

Listeners at home may have had an advantage in that the discussion was edited to fit the twenty minute interval. Unfortunately, as you probably know, the acoustic in the hall at the RCM is very poor for speech, and musical examples sound very boxy over the loudspeakers. The poor young man wrestling with the sound reinforcement has a really hard time, and for all his efforts it can be very hard to hear what contributors are saying at times. The recorded comments by Norgard sounded particularly poor. I'll try to catch it on iPlayer over the weekend.

I heard the talk at the RCM, Ferret. Yes, the composer's comments were so difficult to hear that I began to appreciate his absence. I felt sorry for the sound engineers because Ivan Hewett kept turning through a right angle to address, alternately, the audience (including me) in the front stalls, and the interviewer, Andrew McGregor. I'm glad you've confirmed how poor that Hall is for speech - I've been blaming my old ears!

[edashtav]

Ah! A pity the composer wasn't there: he is a master at communicating the way his Music unfolds to a non-specialist audience. At the 2002 Huddersfield Festival, a member of the audience asked him to clarify a point he'd made (in connection with his 8th & 9th String Quartets): using the figures of his left hand as a sort of Piano, he sang the opening of the Quartet, pointing out the intervals on this "Piano". He then sang the opening of the next section, referring back with his fingers to the opening, then so on to the next section; all the time his eyes fixed on his questioner until he saw she'd understood - and then, when he'd made the point clear, giving her and the rest of his audience a huge smile. Not a word passed (except an occasional "You see?" "You hear?") but he "said" more than the programme notes!

I've never heard Norgard speak in the flesh - but that report from Huddersfield tells us that we missed a treat. What a shame - with his age and ailments we may never get the chance again in the UK.

[bluestateprommer]

Part I of "Manchester United" day at the Proms, in this case Prom 35, proved a mixed bag to me. I thought the best came first, with a very fine Sibelius 6 from the BBC Phil and Storgårds. Delius' Cynara was also good, with solid work from Roderick Williams. To me, the Grieg Concerto was kind of "meh", not bad, but not great. Nice encore from Steven Osborne, though. The orchestra and conductor did as well as one could expect for the Per Nørgård 7th Symphony, although it didn't particularly knock me out. It's a shame that Nørgård's health issues didn't allow him to travel for this concert. One hopes that he got to listen to it via iPlayer at some point. I also enjoyed the Sibelius 3, except for the protracted taperings of the endings of the 1st 2 movements, which is where I thought Andrew Clements' term "effortful" from his Guardian review seemed to fit perfectly.

Regarding this Prom's running time, it seems to harken back to the 1960's and the Glock years, where a perusal of those programs will reveal some real marathons.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Part I of "Manchester United" day at the Proms,

Point of order; as the BBCPhil did not join forces with the Hallé, this day should more strictly be termed "Manchester City Day"!

The orchestra and conductor did as well as one could expect for the Per Nørgård 7th Symphony, although it didn't particularly knock me out.

Begging your further pardon, but how do you know this, bluesy? Maybe your continued consciousness was due to a lousy performance of a cosh of a work?

[Lateralthinking1]

I always expect to like the music of Sibelius more than I do. It is not that I find Sibelius offensive but anonymous. For all that he is idyllic Finland, he is difficult musically to locate. But with two Sibelius symphonies on offer, I decided to give this one a go. If it didn't work out for me, there was plenty more that could. The Grieg concerto might be a war horse but I like it; Norgard would be a real learning experience; and of most allure was that little known piece by Delius which I had decided I would appreciate.

But I'd picked out a Prom that was unlikely to change any preconceptions. From what I gather, Sibelius 6 can seem nebulous even to the composer's supporters and, when it was written, he was world weary. As for the BBC Philharmonic, reviewers felt that its interpretation lacked sparkle. That is not a promising start when, in trying to grab hold of something, one is led to the scent of crystalline snow. So it was that I drifted in and out of the performance, searching for coherence, deep feeling and, erm, tune. Once again, I didn't find them and I still don't understand how often Sibelius is associated with emotional intensity. Where is it?

The 3rd was an improvement. It had more structure and a bit of bite. There was also some grace to its grandness. Even so, there are only so many pizzicato strings one can enjoy in a long night. I think I would take to it more in a different setting. Here it had the misfortune to follow that symphony by Norgard which actually I disliked intensely. I won't rush to listen to him again. That shouldn't be a surprise when Sibelius was quite an influence on him. It would put the cart before a horse that's hard to catch.

All was not lost. The Grieg was enjoyable as it was bound to be. I thought that the orchestra sounded more at home with it, particularly at its climax. Steven Osborne was far better than ok without ever hitting the heights. And then there was that Cynara, a sort of early and late Delius in that it only came to see the light of day during the Fenby period. Described almost everywhere as slight, I thought it was terrific. Full marks to Roderick Williams who handled it with respect and sensitivity. As it happens, Delius rests close to a paradise I've found. The three hours proved that it is he who continues to breathe there.

[Extra Vaganza]

Message #22: lateralthinking:

I find myself in general agreement, LT.

For myself, I find Symphony #1 delightful, #2 erotic and emotional and you can keep the rest on the shelves.

(I consider #7 to be no more a symphony than Dvorak's "Amid Nature's Realm" overture - and not much longer!)

But I do like Sibelius Tone poems and the Lemminkainen type dramas and I think it is here that the composer excels.

Osborne and the BBCPhil were terrific - just the way I like the concerto to be played. (some lovely solo passages from the flute and horn)

Norgard? No way!

E V

[teamsaint]

Heard some of this on a repeat, on an adequate car radio.
I wanted to make a point about the Norgard, a piece that , on first listening, didn't do that much for me, but perhaps the fault is mine.

These are the BBC Proms. I suggest that, even to the relatively well musically schooled R3 audience, stuff like Norgard is generally outside of the listening habits of a great many listeners, and the piece may be new to them in any case. On the repeat, there was a brief , and helpful mention of what to expect at the beginning, and comparing it with the Sibelius symphony(I think, though it may have been another work).Nothing else.
My problem is, and it may not be easy to address, that this music requires, for many listeners, a very particular level if introduction...not so little as to be useless, not so much as to head off into "Pseuds corner" or to push the limits of concentration. if works like this are going to be programmed, and then repeated, and I am all for that, then it ought to be within the abilities of the well funded BBC to help their listeners get the most out of the works, and I don't feel that they do/did. Perhaps I want too much !

[salymap]

I love all the Sibelius symphonies and was lucky to get insights into them, at an early age, from musicians who played them with affection.

I shall never forget walking the stony beach at Herne Bay, Kent, on my own early one morning. Suddenly I
heard Sibelius's 5th symphony from a Beach Hut in a beautiful recording. It made a great impression on me on that stormy day and the elemental surroundings suited the music. He's certainly one of my desert island composers. I enjoyed both of yesterday's performances.

[amateur51]

Message #22: lateralthinking:

I find myself in general agreement, LT.

For myself, I find Symphony #1 delightful, #2 erotic and emotional and you can keep the rest on the shelves.

(I consider #7 to be no more a symphony than Dvorak's "Amid Nature's Realm" overture - and not much longer!)

But I do like Sibelius Tone poems and the Lemminkainen type dramas and I think it is here that the composer excels.

Osborne and the BBCPhil were terrific - just the way I like the concerto to be played. (some lovely solo passages from the flute and horn)

Norgard? No way!

E V

I wonder if EV's disdain for Sibelius symphony no 7 is influenced by the best tunes being given to the ... trombone

[Extra Vaganza]

I wonder if EV's disdain for Sibelius symphony no 7 is influenced by the best tunes being given to the ... trombone

That's a good question. The fact is that it is the only tune in the whole piece - the rest is just flim-flam and decoration.

Five notes! You might as well ask the timpanist to play them.

EV

[Ferretfancy]

That's a good question. The fact is that it is the only tune in the whole piece - the rest is just flim-flam and decoration.

Five notes! You might as well ask the timpanist to play them.

EV

If you really feel that. I can only feel sorry for the fact that you cannot enjoy one of the world's greatest symphonies, but no hard feelings.

[Extra Vaganza]

If you really feel that. I can only feel sorry for the fact that you cannot enjoy one of the world's greatest symphonies, but no hard feelings.

We all have our individual preferences and prejudices but isn't "one of the world's greatest symphonies" rather overstating your case?

Please don't feel sorry for someone because they have a different view from your own. That is surely the whole purpose of a discussion on these message boards and as long as acrimony does not enter into it, it is a healthy sign of a democratic society.

EV

[Lateralthinking1]

Have just got back from the supermarket. Thank you to Extra Vaganza, teamsaint, salymap, ferretfancy and amateur51. All smashing comments and just what I had hoped for. It is really helpful to have a range of views.

I did like your memories salymap of a specific time and place. Funnily enough, I have family just along the coast from there. It was also good to have your recommendations EV which I will certainly make reference to. I am still open minded about JS.

Not sure who my eight DID composers would be - it is the sort of thing that frequently changes - but Vaughan Williams, Delius and Copland would definitely be there and almost certainly Rachmaninoff and Debussy. Faure possibly.

And I do agree teamsaint with your comments about information for the inexperienced. A few months ago, I compiled a list of about 150 composers and made some notes about what I knew of them. They were very brief in places.

I have now started to compile a list of terms - plagal cadences, rinforzando, etc - but I have some way to go.