Prom 26 (2.8.12): Bach – Mass in B minor

[mercia]

Can anyone explain why, when I click on 'Watch again' here, I'm still directed to the radio iPlayer?

not sure, I think this is what you want

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01ljv53/BBC_Proms_2012_Season_Bachs_Mass_in_B_minor/

[Nick Armstrong]

Very strange, I agree but it has happened to me too

Definitely. I find that the R3 mikes are very cruel to solo singers, and performances which sounded fine in situ sound awful on R3.

Oddly, that often isn't the case with TV microphones - something can sound rough on the radio but fine on TV.

[jean]

not sure, I think this is what you want
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ss_in_B_minor/

Yes that's it - thanks!

[salymap]

I gave up after too many close ups of the soloists. Whatever happened to mid distance shots, so that one can imagine being in the hall.

I shall stick with my JEG cassette, made from cousin's recording. Funny the B Minor Mass used to be my favourite Bach choral workI

[rank_and_file]

I listened to the first part on the radio, and watched the second part on TV, and found it somewhat bland and tedious. For me HIPP versions very rarely move me compared to the sort of performances being given when I first heard works like this, then being quite overwhelmed.

Some years ago I downloaded this clip and always thought the uploader had credited the wrong orchestra as it’s the New Philharmonia and I have it on LP. I see that YouTube has added an advert but the attribution is now showing the correct performance - don’t think Klemperer ever did the B Minor with the Berliners.

Anyway - the excerpt seems about the same tempo as last night, but it has the heft and majesty that I feel Bach meant which Bicket does not find. Personal view of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMq44NLoVPc

[jean]

To me it just seems turgid! And there are some very odd accidentals in the runs towards the beginning.

The first time I heard this work was in a performance conducted by Klemperer in London, I can't remember who with. But I think that experience explains why I was slow to appreciate it properly.

[David Underdown]

Sedate?? Certainly didn't seem that way from second row of the Arena. Speedy, exhilarating, just the right side of the edge.

Mary, from practically in front of Iestyn Davies there were just a few signs of nerves as the previous number was drawing to a close. Mastered by the time he actually had to sing though

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I thought it was a beautiful and joyful performance.

HIPP has been mentioned a couple of times on this Thread. I don't know which bits of History Informed the Practice in this particular Performance, but there was a lot that flew in the face of research: too large a choir (about 40 voices: even Christian Wolff - the most consistent opponent of OVpP - suggests no more than 16); a separate quartet of soloists who kept quiet whilst the choir sang; a huge orchestra (about 32 - 'tho' Dresden did have a larger orchestra than Leipzig, so maybe ... ); adult voices; women; litle notice of the Lombardy rhythms in the Domine Deus; "incorrect" performing space. Aside from the instruments themselves, there was very little HIPP activity behind this marvellous performance.

No wonder Alpie liked it!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Very fast"; "too fast"? "Sedate" "Turgid"?

Looking through the list of recordings on the Bach Cantata Website, performances range from 99' 03" (Ortner) to 155' 57" (a "Live" Klemperer performance - perhaps the one jean mentions in #21.) "HIPP" recordings tend to be around the 105 min mark; Smaller modern perfs about 120mins and full Symphony orchestras about 135 mins. ('tho' Ozawa takes 102' 32" with his "traditional" forces, as does Corboz in his third recording; Solti takes 113 mins in Chicago and Leonhardt with La Petite Bande takes 111' 37").

Bickett's performance took 109' 42" (including gaps between sections), so about the same as JEGger's or Herreweghe's.

The slowest studio recording is Karajan's with the Philharmonia (147' 38" - slower than Klemperer in the Studio [135' 40"]). Surprisingly, Karajan's Live performance from the '50s (with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra and Kathleen Ferrier) is 121' - his later BPO recording is 126' 15". The first ever recording was conducted by Albert Coates and took 123 mins. Performances got slower in the '50s and '60s before returning to the two-hour average in the '70s.

And then along came Rifkin (106 mins)!

[heliocentric]

even Christian Wolff

Christoph I think.

In Bach's day there was nothing like the RAH in Leipzig or Dresden or anywhere else of course. (Nor should there be now IMO.)

Yesterday evening I had a listen to the Dunedin Consort's recording of this work, and I think I came out of it with the feeling that 5 voices isn't really enough; even if the instrumental ensemble is scaled down to match it still has quite a weight in the "choral" sections.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Christoph I think.

<doh>!! Of course! (Christian is the composer!)

Yesterday evening I had a listen to the Dunedin Consort's recording of this work, and I think I came out of it with the feeling that 5 voices isn't really enough; even if the instrumental ensemble is scaled down to match it still has quite a weight in the "choral" sections.

My favourite of all the recordings that I've heard of this work is Parrott's. He uses five voices, supported by a further trio of ripienists to strengthen some of the louder passages. Rifkin did the same sort of thing in his pioneering recording, which is a little too smooth for me.

[JohnSkelton]

To me it just seems turgid! And there are some very odd accidentals in the runs towards the beginning.

"the Klemperer who, as Robert Tear - a great fan - cheekily reveals, was actually asleep during the recording of one of the choruses for his EMI set of the B minor Mass."

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/December%201995/75/807504/#header-logo

(That Davis set of the Beethoven symphonies was the last thing I acquired as a result of a Gramophone recommendation ).

[jean]

"Very fast"; "too fast"? "Sedate" "Turgid"?

Let me hastily say it wasn't this performance that struck me as turgid, but the TouTube Klemperer in the post before mine.

I haven't heard the whole of this performance yet, but I am enjoying it - not too fast at all, the first Kyrie if anything a little too relaxed. Spotted Sally Dunkley and Patrick Craig in the choir. Don't think it was really too big for that space. Lovely gentle baroque woodwind.

But in the last performance I was fortunate enough to sing in, we had trumpeters who held their instruments in one hand, stood with their legs apart and balanced themselves flamboyantly with the opposite hand on hip, like this:



I was very disappointed that these trumpeters did not do that (but I suppose it makes little difference to the sound they make.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Let me hastily say it wasn't this performance that struck me as turgid, but the TouTube Klemperer in the post before mine.

Apologies, jean; the "page turn" led to my misunderstanding.

But in the last performance I was fortunate enough to sing in, we had trumpeters who held their instruments in one hand, stood with their legs apart and balanced themselves flamboyantly with the opposite hand on hip, like this:



I was very disappointed that these trumpeters did not do that (but I suppose it makes little difference to the sound they make.)

Now that would be a HIPP performance!

[Bryn]

<doh>!! Of course! (Christian is the composer!)

And classicist, and performer. Looking forward to hearing/seeing him on the 17th, along with many others of his ilk.