Prom 23 (31.7.12): Vaughan Williams, Ireland, Delius & Walton

[mercia]

I've sung Belshazzar quite often, and found it exciting initially, but it wears thin after a while.

may I ask is it a difficult sing ? it sounds unremittingly high for the sopranos - I think the chorusmaster made a similar comment in the original radio broadcast.

[Nick Armstrong]

may I ask is it a difficult sing ? it sounds unremittingly high for the sopranos - I think the chorusmaster made a similar comment in the original radio broadcast.

There were some endearing clips before BF of Walton giving his typical camp, droll take on things: one thing he said was that he thought the piece was very difficult, indeed that all his music is difficult to perform as he doesn't really think about the performers and they don't therefore really like doing it!

He also relayed that lovely story about Beecham (who followed the piece's composition) saying something like "dear boy since you're never going to hear it more than once, why not throw in a couple of brass bands..." )

[salymap]

Istill haven't heard the RVW,Ireland etc as I go to bed very early now.

Lat, pleased about the Bushes,etc, Ifyou don't know it try Walton's Symphony no1. It's surely one of his greatest works and I think you would appreciate it.

That Beecham story about Belshazzar. There are two versions. One says he couldn't get to grips with it and passed it to Sargent, who was more or less Tommy's assistant at that time.

The other version says Beecham was just too busy.

[Mary Chambers]

may I ask is it a difficult sing ? it sounds unremittingly high for the sopranos - I think the chorusmaster made a similar comment in the original radio broadcast.

I was an alto, so I didn't suffer from the high notes. I didn't find it particularly difficult, though there are one or two slightly tricky rhythms. I did find it tiring, because the choir doesn't get a chance to sit down. It's very hard on the feet! Of course, some people have tougher feet than others

[salymap]

I agree Mary, the words were needed for the Ireland. 'These things shall be' was all I could pick out.

And congratulations for singing in Belshazzar. It must have been hard work but very satisfying.

[mercia]

I must say that this year I am finding the online programme notes very useful for texts, once they are expanded to fullscreen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2012/july-31/14276/programme-notes

[RobertLeDiable]

I watched on BBC last night. None of this music particularly grabs me, but a concert on TV is too good an opportunity to miss. Enjoyed the RVW the most. The Ireland, which I don't know at all, was lost on me, because I couldn't hear the words and subtitles were intermittent. "These things shall be" came up on the screen rather often, and that was the only bit I could hear anyway. I didn't find it interesting musically, and the soloist wasn't in tune.

I've sung Belshazzar quite often, and found it exciting initially, but it wears thin after a while. It was good to see the archive clips of Walton. The women in the choir were very wavery in the more exposed parts, I thought, and Lemalu not riveting, but I enjoyed the orchestral contribution. There didn't seem to be any subtitles for this, which didn't matter to me because I know it, but must make a big difference to viewers unfamiliar with the piece. Just becuse it's in English doesn't mean the words are audible, and it does help to know what's going on.

Oh dear, none of this sounds very positive, does it? I'm still glad it was on!

Belshazzar may not be a piece you'd listen to every day, but I find it still seems amazingly fresh on occasional reaquaintance. I haven't read back through this thread so don't know if it's already been said, but to me the problem on this occasion was Otaka's conducting. It was all very efficient, with decent ensemble, etc., but really lacking in spontaneous excitement. Unfortinately for him the camera frequently showed him from the front so you could see how buried in the score he was - and this piece of all pieces needs a conductor who totally identifies with it and imposes his personality on choir and orchestra.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree Mary, the words were needed for the Ireland. 'These things shall be' was all I could pick out.

And congratulations for singing in Belshazzar. It must have been hard work but very satisfying.

Saly and Lat - click the link from Mercia's #51 for the texts to the Ireland and Walton, though I have to say they are a bit hard to read unless you click on the magnifying glass icon at the foot of the page... but then the bottom of the text disappears!

"These Things Shall Be" is a work I'm very fond of and brings tears to my eyes when I think of what the world was to go through so soon after it was composed; for all the Pomp and Circumstance in its harmonic language... Ireland's head was maybe naive but the heart was in the right place.

If only it were that simple...

As to "Belshazzar" my feeling has always been that, for all its supposed condemnation of hubris, Walton gloried in his own mastery of jingoistic musical utterance, those brass fanfares in piled up major thirds would become his trademark in the later wartime Shakespeare movie epics. The thrill of it scares me, to be honest: what a powerful tool for manipulating the emotions music can be!

[RobertLeDiable]

Saly and Lat - click the link from Mercia's #51 for the texts to the Ireland and Walton, though I have to say they are a bit hard to read unless you click on the magnifying glass icon at the foot of the page... but then the bottom of the text disappears!

"These Things Shall Be" is a work I'm very fond of and brings tears to my eyes when I think of what the world was to go through so soon after it was composed; for all the Pomp and Circumstance in its harmonic language... Ireland's head was maybe naive but the heart was in the right place.

If only it were that simple...

As to "Belshazzar" my feeling has always been that, for all its supposed condemnation of hubris, Walton gloried in his own mastery of jingoistic musical utterance, those brass fanfares in piled up major thirds would become his trademark in the later wartime Shakespeare movie epics. The thrill of it scares me, to be honest: what a powerful tool for manipulating the emotions music can be!

Well, I think that's going a little too far. Walton certainly perfected a 'ceremonial' language in Belshazzar which came in handy later, not least in Henry V. But I don't see what's 'jingoistic' about Belshazzar. As for the wartime films - they were necessarily highly patriotic as a means of boosting morale were they not?

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, I think that's going a little too far. Walton certainly perfected a 'ceremonial' language in Belshazzar which came in handy later, not least in Henry V. But I don't see what's 'jingoistic' about Belshazzar. As for the wartime films - they were necessarily highly patriotic as a means of boosting morale were they not?

Absolutely! But I still cannot imagine a French, Italian, Spanish or even German composer composing a climax to trump that of the praising of the gods for sheer Britishness in the old imperial sense. What scares me is feeling carried away on the tide of it!

[RobertLeDiable]

Absolutely! But I still cannot imagine a French, Italian, Spanish or even German composer composing a climax to trump that of the praising of the gods for sheer Britishness in the old imperial sense. What scares me is feeling carried away on the tide of it!

Ah - I see what you mean. Well yes, it's pretty effective! But I don't think you should worry about being carried away by it. It's not as if it's going to make you want to rush out and start colonising India again.

[Serial_Apologist]

Ah - I see what you mean. Well yes, it's pretty effective! But I don't think you should worry about being carried away by it. It's not as if it's going to make you want to rush out and start colonising India again.

[amateur51]

Ah - I see what you mean. Well yes, it's pretty effective! But I don't think you should worry about being carried away by it. It's not as if it's going to make you want to rush out and start colonising India again.

[secondfiddle]

may I ask is it a difficult sing ? it sounds unremittingly high for the sopranos - I think the chorusmaster made a similar comment in the original radio broadcast.

Back in the '60s and '70s I sang in Belshazzar's Feast several times (among the tenors), under Sargent, Pritchard and Groves at the Proms and under Meredith Davies. I don't think we found it difficult once you had got the 'swing' of the work - Sea Drift I found much harder. It was difficult, of course, for those who gave the first performance at the 1931 Leeds Festival because the idiom was strange to them. Incidentally, the work was always going to be Sargent's and not Beecham's. Beecham was in charge of the whole festival and Sargent was the assistant conductor. Beecham gave him the evening concert on the second day that included Belshazzar's Feast. Was it as a result of the success Sargent had with this work that Beecham said of Sargent that 'he could get the buggers to sing'? I always found it a very exciting work to sing in, especially the wonderful build up to 'gold', and with two extra brass bands blaring away (although Sargent only used one). It's a work I never tire of hearing as possibly Walton's boldest and most adventurous score.

[salymap]

Back in the '60s and '70s I sang in Belshazzar's Feast several times (among the
tenors), under Sargent, Pritchard and Groves at the Proms and under Meredith Davies. I don't think we found it difficult once you had got the 'swing' of the work - Sea Drift I found much harder. It was difficult, of course, for those who gave the first performance at the 1931 Leeds Festival because the idiom was strange to them. Incidentally, the work was always going to be Sargent's and not Beecham's. Beecham was in charge of the whole festival and Sargent was the assistant conductor. Beecham gave him the evening concert on the second day that included Belshazzar's Feast. Was it as a result of the success Sargent had with this work that Beecham said of Sargent that 'he could get the buggers to sing'? I always found it a very exciting work to sing in, especially the wonderful build up to 'gold', and with two extra brass bands blaring away (although Sargent only used one). It's a work I never tire of hearing as possibly Walton's boldest and most adventurous score.

That's interesting secondfiddle. I believe that Beecham realised that Sargent loved conducting choirs, always seemed more 'at home' rehearsing them than an orchestra. As you will know conductors all have their own methods and Tommy would, perhaps, prefer to leave the hard work to a choirmaster, stepping in at the last moment.