Prom 18 (27.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphony No. 9, 'Choral'

[johnb]

Of course heliocentric and kernelbogey are right in pointing out that comparing live performances with one's favourite (no doubt edited, patched, etc) CD recording is very unfair indeed. There is something magical and unique about a live performance. Additionally what Barenboim has achieved with the WEDO is very remarkable indeed.

Embarking on a Beethoven symphony cycle must be an extremely daunting prospect (or at least it should be) but doing so is making a statement. It sets up expectations. Then, of course, there was the rather crass over-hyping by the BBC and presenters.

My problem with the concerts I listened to (I decided to pass on the 9th) was that the performances just didn't grab me - in very marked contrast to when Mackerras performed a similar cycle some years back at the Edinburgh Festival (also broadcast on R3).

[JohnSkelton]

I too have been disappointed, not to say shocked, at the sniping here at these Barenboim/ WEDO performances.

We've become accustomed - have we not? - to 'perfect' studio recordings. I've mostly preferred to hear recordings of live performances with all their coughs, occasional wrong notes and other mistakes, because the living quality of the performance is so palpable: one reason that I like TTN so fervently.

So what if Barenboim takes a conservative approach, or this band of young players has an off night, a moment of poor ensemble or weave about on their seats? Who are we to demand 'perfect' perfomances from every Prom? Surely the Proms are first and foremost - still! - for the audience in the hall: some posters have confirmed that the excitement was palpable in the RAH - and we are fortunate to be able to participate without stirring from home.

I listened mainly for the Boulez aspect or rather to hear how the concerts worked as programmes but liked the Beethoven performances I've heard (nos. 3, 5 and 7 unheard) on their own terms. Which is surely one of the pleasures of listening to a concert - with a recording maybe you look out more for the kind of performance which you know convinces you (in my case broadly HIPP). There was a freshness about these concerts which perhaps surprised me but which I thoroughly enjoyed. I don't think it's different reactions that were the problem (if there was a problem) - more the relish with which people seem to tear things to shreds. In no rational way were these poor concerts (and it's a pity some just know what music is and know what it isn't and won't listen outside that certainty, as with the Boulez works).

[rodney_h_d]

.....Yes, the dynamics at the start and at the beginning of the Ode to Joy were indeed at the extreme end of pianissimo!...

I agree. I was following the Barenreiter/J del Mar study score [which incidentally is not to the same standard of production as the other eight symphonies] and for what it's worth, whereas the opening of the work is marked "pianissimo", the beginning of the Ode to Joy is just "piano". There does seem to be a tradition to play the opening of the Ode very quietly indeed. I wonder where that came from? Did earlier editions differ?

[heliocentric]

I listened mainly for the Boulez aspect or rather to hear how the concerts worked as programmes but liked the Beethoven performances I've heard (nos. 3, 5 and 7 unheard) on their own terms. Which is surely one of the pleasures of listening to a concert - with a recording maybe you look out more for the kind of performance which you know convinces you (in my case broadly HIPP).

Right. I wouldn't have bothered with the Beethoven quintet (featuring a big "modern" piano!!!!!) at all if I hadn't had to listen to it along the way to Le marteau (if there's a way to fast forward the iPlayer I haven't found it, but that's probably just as well).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I agree. I was following the Barenreiter/J del Mar study score [which incidentally is not to the same standard of production as the other eight symphonies] and for what it's worth, whereas the opening of the work is marked "pianissimo", the beginning of the Ode to Joy is just "piano". There does seem to be a tradition to play the opening of the Ode very quietly indeed. I wonder where that came from? Did earlier editions differ?

The term piano is not a scientifically exact marking. Inevitably this gives the conductor a certain amount of licence. If the result is convincing, I see no objection to this.

It's also interesting that Beethoven used the mp marking, but never the mf.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Right. I wouldn't have bothered with the Beethoven quintet (featuring a big "modern" piano!!!!!) at all if I hadn't had to listen to it along the way to Le marteau (if there's a way to fast forward the iPlayer I haven't found it, but that's probably just as well).

You didn't really have to listen to it on the radio, the option to switch on shortly before the estimate start time of the Boulez. As for using a modern piano, I must remember to go to my next Beethoven concert by horse and cart.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's also interesting that Beethoven used the mp marking, but never the mf.

Really??!!

I never knew this: cheers, Alpie!

[JohnSkelton]

(if there's a way to fast forward the iPlayer I haven't found it, but that's probably just as well).

There is a way to fast forward the iPlayer - just like finding a place on a YouTube video place the cursor at the bottom of the iPlayer screen and a little bar with the time next to it shows up. Move your cursor along it or place it at what you think might be the correct point (if it's a 90 minute broadcast approximately 1/3 through for 30 minutes).

I thought the big "modern" piano!!!!! in the Beethoven was a bit clattery but that might have to do with the Albert Hall . Now I must feed the horse and check to see the cart is in good repair .

[Resurrection Man]

I too have been disappointed, not to say shocked, at the sniping here at these Barenboim/ WEDO performances.

We've become accustomed - have we not? - to 'perfect' studio recordings. I've mostly preferred to hear recordings of live performances with all their coughs, occasional wrong notes and other mistakes, because the living quality of the performance is so palpable: one reason that I like TTN so fervently.

So what if Barenboim takes a conservative approach, or this band of young players has an off night, a moment of poor ensemble or weave about on their seats? Who are we to demand 'perfect' perfomances from every Prom? Surely the Proms are first and foremost - still! - for the audience in the hall: some posters have confirmed that the excitement was palpable in the RAH - and we are fortunate to be able to participate without stirring from home.

Are those of us unable to go to the Proms not entitled to have a view on the musical performance? It isn't a question of a 'perfect' performance (whatever that is) but how the conductor (and orchestra0 perform a piece of music. You can hear that equally well at home as in the hall. There is no decrying that he has created an excellent orchestra but I find his change of tempi, his general stodginess of approach unlistenable. Andrew McGregor this morning made similar comments. One in particular stuck in my mind and that was that compared to Chailly, Barenboim took four minutes longer for the first movement of the 9th. I find that too slow. Others will differ but we are all entitled to voice our opinion. That is what a forum is for.

[heliocentric]

As for using a modern piano, I must remember to go to my next Beethoven concert by horse and cart.

<rolls eyes heavenwards> Given the choice I'd rather hear Beethoven played on the instruments of his time, that's all.

John, as soon as Tom Service started talking I immediately tried to move the cursor as you describe: the cursor moved to a different place but the EMPHATIC introduction just carried ON as if n o t h i n g had HAPPENED!!!

[Bryn]

<rolls eyes heavenwards> Given the choice I'd rather hear Beethoven played on the instruments of his time, that's all.

John, as soon as Tom Service started talking I immediately tried to move the cursor as you describe: the cursor moved to a different place but the EMPHATIC introduction just carried ON as if n o t h i n g had HAPPENED!!!

The trick is to download from the iPlayer with suitable software, then extract the aac file and edit it in mp3directcut. Simples! No more TS.

[cloughie]

<rolls eyes heavenwards> Given the choice I'd rather hear Beethoven played on the instruments of his time, that's all.

John, as soon as Tom Service started talking I immediately tried to move the cursor as you describe: the cursor moved to a different place but the EMPHATIC introduction just carried ON as if n o t h i n g had HAPPENED!!!

Are you on a laptop and are you using a mouse? I find the cursor pads a pain and always use a mouse where possible.

[heliocentric]

Simples! No more TS.

If only it were that simple without taking the law into one's own hands, but yes, thanks, that is obviously a good idea.

[cloughie]

The trick is to download from the iPlayer with suitable software, then extract the aac file and edit it in mp3directcut. Simples! No more TS.

Bryn - if it was really simple everyone would be doing it! I use Freecorder to download - how do I get the editing kit?

I think heliocentric just wants to clip at the listening stage!

[Bryn]

Bryn - if it was really simple everyone would be doing it! I use Freecorder to download - how do I get the editing kit?

I'll respond by PM.