Prom 15 (25.7.12): Smetana, Prokofiev & Dvorák

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[rodney_h_d]

I thought it worked well. However, previous knowledge of the quartet is bound to influence one's perception. Supposing Szell's orchestration had come first and we had just heard a string quartet arrangement. We might be saying:
"That was very nice, but it lacks so much of the impact and depth of the original."

I think that's absolutely spot on! I confess that with "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" I tend to think of Dame Myra Hess, because that's how I knew it first! I still get a slight feeling that the original version somehow lacks the percussive sound of a piano - but of course that feeling doesn't last!

I don't generally enjoy orchestral arrangements of string quartets. Didn't Sir Colin Davis get involved with an arrangement of Beethoven's Op.127 at the Proms several years ago? I would rather have heard any scratch quartet from the orchestra play it instead. My particular problem with the Smetana/Szell was that I heard the Skampa Quartet play the original live earlier this week.

[jayne lee wilson]

Does anyone have views on the dressing up of quartets for string orchestra? For me it isn't primarily the loss of agility that gets me, it's the destruction of the balance of parts of a string quartet. With a string orchestra at standard strength there's bound to be a downplaying of inner parts and often (unless grotesquely boosted by double basses) of the cello part.

The one exception I'd make is the Barber Adagio, though even here I find that the quartet version conveys a markedly different mood (more aspirational, less sorrowful).

...But then you'd give up great experiences, like Bernstein's VPO performance of Mahler's arrangement of Op.131, or Dohnanyi's VPO one of Op.95... the VPO don't seem to mind playing them! Yan Pascal Tortelier's orchestration of Ravel's Piano Trio could easily change the way you hear the trio itself. Not to mention Schoenberg's own arrangements of his 2nd Quartet and Verklarte Nacht..., Boulez' Notations... does it change things if it's done by the original composer?

Maybe the Smetana would have been best as a string-orchestral arrangement, but I'm always attracted to re-creative interpretation, reverent or not. What about the wilder shores of arrangement, like Uri Caine's LvB Diabellis with Concerto Koln (keep the brandy handy)? Or Jacques Loussier? Wouldn't the world be a brighter place for more of them? What if they ARE outrageous? Won't they still refresh your responses?
Wouldn't Mozart or JSB be amazed that we didn't do a lot more of this? They wouldn't stop to consider whether the original "needed" arranging, would they?

So fhg, to say that a quartet doesn't "need" "inking in" anymore than Wordsworth's Daffodils need replacing with leylandii is to discredit by exaggerated parallel. Visual analogy can be both useful and misleading (orchestrating a quartet isn't like adding leylandii, it's more akin to painting the daffodils gold or red). But again, you don't destroy the music by arranging it, it's all there to try, pick and choose. In 2012, whenever and wherever you like...

[PJPJ]

...But then you'd give up great experiences, like Bernstein's VPO performance of Mahler's arrangement of Op.131, or Dohnanyi's VPO one of Op.95... the VPO don't seem to mind playing them! Yan Pascal Tortelier's orchestration of Ravel's Piano Trio could easily change the way you hear the trio itself. Not to mention Schoenberg's own arrangements of his 2nd Quartet and Verklarte Nacht..., Boulez' Notations... does it change things if it's done by the original composer?

...snip...

So fhg, to say that a quartet doesn't "need" "inking in" anymore than Wordsworth's Daffodils need replacing with leylandii is to discredit by exaggerated parallel. Visual analogy can be both useful and misleading (orchestrating a quartet isn't like adding leylandii, it's more akin to painting the daffodils gold or red). But again, you don't destroy the music by arranging it, it's all there to try, pick and choose. In 2012, whenever and wherever you like...

Indeed, and may I add all those Debussy orch. Bloggs to your list?

I enjoyed the Smetana orch. Szell enormously (at home) and am pretty sure I'd not heard it before. Sadly, after many years of listening to the Quartet in its original form, the result of my hearing Szell's orchestration didn't produce a Bateman response - I think I'm getting old - so I'm with "the man who" said he enjoyed.....unless I am that man.

Well, at least no-one's suggested that sort of thing belongs on Radio 2.

Yet.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So fhg, to say that a quartet doesn't "need" "inking in" anymore than Wordsworth's Daffodils need replacing with leylandii is to discredit by exaggerated parallel. Visual analogy can be both useful and misleading (orchestrating a quartet isn't like adding leylandii, it's more akin to painting the daffodils gold or red). But again, you don't destroy the music by arranging it, it's all there to try, pick and choose. In 2012, whenever and wherever you like...

I don't think I actually said (and I certainly didn't mean to imply) that the Smetana was "destroyed" by Szell's orchestration: vice versa, in fact.

In 2012, I "pick and choose" Smetana's yellow daffodils over Szell's red ones, just as I choose Shakespeare's King Lear over Nahum Tate's. I suspect I will still do so in 2013.

[LeMartinPecheur]

...But then you'd give up great experiences, like Bernstein's VPO performance of Mahler's arrangement of Op.131, or Dohnanyi's VPO one of Op.95... the VPO don't seem to mind playing them! Yan Pascal Tortelier's orchestration of Ravel's Piano Trio could easily change the way you hear the trio itself. Not to mention Schoenberg's own arrangements of his 2nd Quartet and Verklarte Nacht..., Boulez' Notations... does it change things if it's done by the original composer?

Jayne: almost you tempt me to try. But only almost! And yes, I think it does change it if the composer does it. For clarity, I really like a lot of arrangements. But str orch versions of str 4tets just seem to show that bigger isn't necessarily better. They're louder, and that's about all I can say that even hints of a gain If I had to listen to Op 131 in the Hollywood Bowl the transcription might be better than a string quartet, but personally I'd seek out a decent quartet in a smaller venue!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think that's absolutely spot on! I confess that with "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" I tend to think of Dame Myra Hess, because that's how I knew it first! I still get a slight feeling that the original version somehow lacks the percussive sound of a piano - but of course that feeling doesn't last!

I think of Jesu, Joy... as being close to death. Invariably I have to play it as the only oboist. It's 2 pages long and the second page has to be done in a single breath if it is to played properly.

[BBMmk2]

I quite enjoyed the transcription of the Smetana. I think if transcriptions work out well, anything be alrite on the noite! Maybe it's the brass bander inbmme coming out!

[amateur51]

I quite enjoyed the transcription of the Smetana. I think if transcriptions work out well, anything be alrite on the noite! Maybe it's the brass bander inbmme coming out!

Whatever you say, BBM

You gotta love him - newspapers have SuDoKu and cryptic crosswords, FoR3 has BBM's posts

[rodney_h_d]

I think of Jesu, Joy... as being close to death. Invariably I have to play it as the only oboist. It's 2 pages long and the second page has to be done in a single breath if it is to played properly.

That recalls a relative telling me that something [quite different] she doesn't enjoy much as an oboist is the opening of Zadok the Priest - the first thirty bars of which consists of repeated quavers while the strings are having fun with their arpeggios!

[BBMmk2]

Thank yopu amateur51!!

I still think that transcriptions do work well, if they are good ones. I have heard quite awful ones in my time!

Done in good taste, then they are fine.

[bluestateprommer]

I was looking forward to hearing the Smetana, as it's a favourite quartet, but I thought Szell's orchestration so predictable, and in the hall it came across as workmanlike and little more......Stunning playing in the Prokofiev concerto, and a fine contribution from the orchestra as well......A fine performance of Dvorak 7 rounded of an enjoyable if very sticky evening in the RAH

I agree that the Szell arrangement (yes, the term is correct here) of Smetana's quartet didn't really do the original any favors, although I liked the rich string sheen that JB obtained from the ensemble, no surprise as JB is a former cellist. Excellent work in the Prokofiev concerto from Gluzman, the BBC SO and JB, followed by a suitably musically quirky/whacked encore from Gluzman in the form of the Ysaye. Very fine Dvorak 7 as well, with JB very much on home turf there, to state the incredibly obvious. While it would have been nice to hear different Dvorak besides 7, which JB led with the BBC SO at the Barbican not that many seasons ago, I suppose the connection of Dvorak having written the 7th for the Philharmonic Society of London justifies its inclusion this year.

(Of course, that last big begs the question of why no RVW 2 this year of all years. The last RVW 2 in the final version was 2003, and of course there was the one-off of the original 1913 version in 2005. But this is a topic for another thread.)