Prom 15 (25.7.12): Smetana, Prokofiev & Dvorák

[Ferretfancy]

I was looking forward to hearing the Smetana, as it's a favourite quartet, but I thought Szell's orchestration so predictable, and in the hall it came across as workmanlike and little more. Nobody seemed to have their heart in the piece on the platform, but it was very hot in there last night. The best section was the opening of the slow movement, which was for the strings and thus most close to the original.
Stunning playing in the Prokofiev concerto, and a fine contribution from the orchestra as well. Gluzman gave us a marvellously idiotic encore -- Bach / Shnittke ? Perhaps somebody can tell us.

A fine performance of Dvorak 7 rounded of an enjoyable if very sticky evening in the RAH

[edashtav]

However, I agree with Salymap's forebodings about the Smetana. Very clever, but it doesn't work, does it?

An excellent violin soloist - did the sound mixer forget to fade up his solo mic at the very beginning of the Prokofiev?

HS

I agree the Smetana didn't work in Szell's bright, but not garish, robes. However, I lay some of the blame at Smetana's door for I don't find his quartet that convincing as pure music. I worry about stylistic inconsistencies, so much so that I hear irritating pre-echoes of light music (Sullivan?) at one point.

Surely, Hornspieler, the answer to your question why Czechs place Smetana on the Winner's podium and award Dvorak the silver medal lies at the heart of the latter's 7th? It was written to gain the approval of composers like Brahms and critics such as Eduard Hanslick. Dvorak transcended his national roots; Smetana was bound by them. I find the 7th far more Brahmsian than Czech, whereas its predecessor is the converse.

Like you, I loved the violin soloist and the Prokofiev was the jewel within this Prom.

[NickWraight]

I rather agree with Ferretfancy, workmanlike. Szell's orchestration seemd rather heavy to me (4 percussionists plus Tympani; Bass Tuba; 3 Trombones and Trumpets) with the result that the agility that a quartet can bring to a work with its many mood changes was akin to listening to a bus taking a roundabout (!) for all the conductor's efforts. I';m not sure its a very good orchestration either: compare the string orceshtra versions of the late Beethoven quarters by the likes of Mitropoulos and Bernestein.

The Prokoviev was the highlight of the evening despite the one or two infelicitations by the soloist. The Ysyae encore was definitely earned with the Bach sinfonia weaved in and out of focus with the Dies Irae chant, amongst other influences. Dvorak 7 was given much commitment and weighty energy but was seemed slightly under-rehearsed: Beholavek's rhythmic mastery foxed the ensemble on a number of occasions!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Supposing Szell's orchestration had come first and we had just heard a string quartet arrangement.

Erm ... I admire Szell's genius as a conductor, but I think it's pushing your point to suggest that he could have orchestrated a work before the original version of that work had appeared?

And we HIPPites are very accustomed to hearing big orchestral works restored to their original chamber scorings. It's only the ModCons who feel that these restorations "lack so much of the impact and depth of the" big orchestral versions.

It wasn't really Smetana, was it?

(By the way; did Szell ever conduct Ma Vlast or any of Smetana's own orchestral scores?)

[cloughie]

Erm (By the way; did Szell ever conduct Ma Vlast or any of Smetana's own orchestral scores?)

Certainly BBride P F DC and Vltava. Don't know about anything else.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Cheers, cloughie: I expected Vltava, but had forgotten the Bartered Bride pieces.

I'd give this entire orchestration of the Quartet for just one complete Ma Vlast recording by Szell.

[Ferretfancy]

I rather agree with Ferretfancy, workmanlike. Szell's orchestration seemd rather heavy to me (4 percussionists plus Tympani; Bass Tuba; 3 Trombones and Trumpets) with the result that the agility that a quartet can bring to a work with its many mood changes was akin to listening to a bus taking a roundabout (!) for all the conductor's efforts. I';m not sure its a very good orchestration either: compare the string orceshtra versions of the late Beethoven quarters by the likes of Mitropoulos and Bernestein.

The Prokoviev was the highlight of the evening despite the one or two infelicitations by the soloist. The Ysyae encore was definitely earned with the Bach sinfonia weaved in and out of focus with the Dies Irae chant, amongst other influences. Dvorak 7 was given much commitment and weighty energy but was seemed slightly under-rehearsed: Beholavek's rhythmic mastery foxed the ensemble on a number of occasions!

So, I guessed wrongly, the encore was by Ysaye, so thanks for that.

[amateur51]

Cheers, cloughie: I expected Vltava, but had forgotten the Bartered Bride pieces.

I'd give this entire orchestration of the Quartet for just one complete Ma Vlast recording by Szell.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

.

It wasn't really Smetana, was it?

Who was it then? Smetana composed all of the music. That's the main thing. Fellow Forum members may be aware that I do quite a bit of orchestration for other people. The music always remains the work of the composer; the orchestrator merely inks-in, hopefully with taste and imagination.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Who was it then? Smetana composed all of the music.

I think the main point of difference between us, Alpie, is summed up here: you place less emphasis on timbre than I do (elsewhere, you've used the word "precious" in connection with attention to timbre). For me the sound of the solo string quartet is as much a part of "the Music" of Smetana's original as the dynamics and pacing, and that to alter this fundamental sound and replace it with that of a full Symphony Orchestra is to change the Music, in much the same way that changing the colours of a painting, or the vocabulary of a poem means that it isn't "really" the original Artist's work. I don't think a String Quartet needs "inking-in" any more than Wordsworth's Daffodils need replacing by Leylandii, or a motorway shown running through the Hay Wain. Such added details may reflect back on the original and refreshen our response to it (Duchamps adding a moustache to the Mona Lisa) but they aren't "really Smetana" if I may so put it.

[salymap]

Ferney, I wish I had put it like that. The strings only passages in the new version were bearable but when the brass and woodwind got involved it was a travesty to me.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't think a String Quartet needs "inking-in" any more than Wordsworth's Daffodils need replacing by Leylandii, or a motorway shown running through the Hay Wain.

Well if you will put it like that.

But I loved it, despite the nearby M11 and the unwelcome vegetation.

For someone who had never heard the quartet, I think this would have been an enticement to hear more of Smetana, even though the sound world was not what Smetana had actually left us.
Sometimes, an orchestration can improve on the original. I cite as examples Elgar's orchestration Parry's Jerusalem, Gordon Jacob's orchestration of Elgar's Organ Sonata and Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's Pictures.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Phew! He didn't mention Brahms: that was a close one!

I long ago discovered that I'm the only person in this universe who prefers the Mussorgsky Pictures in the composer's own "orchestration": (for Piano), but I'll concede the Elgar Organ Sonata. (Isn't there another one which is an ... err ... Organisation of a Brass Band piece. I'm not as convinced by Edu's writing for Organ as I am by Smetana's for String Quartet.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

Does anyone have views on the dressing up of quartets for string orchestra? For me it isn't primarily the loss of agility that gets me, it's the destruction of the balance of parts of a string quartet. With a string orchestra at standard strength there's bound to be a downplaying of inner parts and often (unless grotesquely boosted by double basses) of the cello part.

The one exception I'd make is the Barber Adagio, though even here I find that the quartet version conveys a markedly different mood (more aspirational, less sorrowful).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'll concede the Elgar Organ Sonata. (Isn't there another one which is an ... err ... Organisation of a Brass Band piece.

The so called 2nd Organ Sonata was an arrangement by Sir Ivor Atkins of Elgar's Severn Suite, which was, as you rightly point out, a brass band piece, but the composer later prepared a full orchestral version. The mystery is why Novello included this non-Elgar arrangement in their Complete Edition (now being continued by the Elgar Society).