Prom 10 (21.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 3 & 4

[Bryn]

I for one and entirely happy to have the five Boulez concerts padded out with beefed up arrangements of Beethoven symphonies, and one of his quintets.

[Roehre]

Well, if anything could be criticised isn't it the placing of Boulez between the symphonies? Truly awful in my opinion, what is the purpose ?

The Boulez pieces are the one and only reason why I might have switched on either Radio 3 or the Tele for these concerts. But very familiar with the Boulez pieces and knowing the Beethovens inside out too, I decided to give it a miss.
There are more interesting concerts in these Proms to which I prefer to spend some of my spare time, I'm afraid.
I only want to point to an excellent and very exciting version and performance of Bach's Kunst der Fuge, e.g. (for those who want to keep their ears open for new sonorities and music that is, of course)

[Barbirollians]

I am trying to work out whose remarks strike me as more narrow minded - those of Bryn or John Wright ! For goodness sake I wish people on here would stop playing the player rather than the ball !

I do find these Beethoven performances mainstream but to call them arrangements strikes me as a cheap form of criticism. I don't find Boulez easy . I never have done but I do not doubt his sincerity or his musicianship either and Emperor's new clothes strikes me as equally cheap.

[Bryn]

The technological differences between the instruments of Beethoven's time and those used in modern instrument orchestras is enough in itself to merit the term arrangement. Then there are the changes in playing technique. It is not a negative value judgement, just a recognition of changed circumstances. The instruments and playing techniques of a modern instrument orchestra just were not available to Beethoven. Had they been, I feel sure he would have taken their characteristics into consideration when writing for them.

[John Wright]

Thanks Barbs. I always knew Bryn and I had something in common; we're cheap We know what we like, maybe not the same thing but we know what we like.

[Bryn]

I am trying to work out whose remarks strike me as more narrow minded - those of Bryn or John Wright ! For goodness sake I wish people on here would stop playing the player rather than the ball !

That's what I call an own goal.

[John Wright]

That remark, Bryn, is definitely offside!

[cloughie]

The technological differences between the instruments of Beethoven's time and those used in modern instrument orchestras is enough in itself to merit the term arrangement. Then there are the changes in playing technique. It is not a negative value judgement, just a recognition of changed circumstances. The instruments and playing techniques of a modern instrument orchestra just were not available to Beethoven. Had they been, I feel sure he would have taken their characteristics into consideration when writing for them.

I wonder what Boulez would sound like on instruments of Beethoven's time. Probably awful - I'm not sure how keen I am on Beethoven played on the instruments of his time - particularly old pianos.

[Barbirollians]

Not at all Bryn and Mr Wright - your responses have made my point and were what I hoped might happen .

[Bryn]

I wonder what Boulez would sound like on instruments of Beethoven's time. Probably awful - I'm not sure how keen I am on Beethoven played on the instruments of his time - particularly old pianos.

Not Boulez, but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfk1OYstiao

[Bryn]

Not at all Bryn and Mr Wright - your responses have made my point and were what I hoped might happen .

If it makes you happy to delude yourself into thinking so ...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The technological differences between the instruments of Beethoven's time and those used in modern instrument orchestras is enough in itself to merit the term arrangement. Then there are the changes in playing technique. It is not a negative value judgement, just a recognition of changed circumstances. The instruments and playing techniques of a modern instrument orchestra just were not available to Beethoven. Had they been, I feel sure he would have taken their characteristics into consideration when writing for them.

And yet - vocal music did not stay with Ancient Mesopotamian musical styles, simply because the human voice hasn't changed in the last 5,500 years.
Beethoven's music for piano is not so different from his music for orchestra. Vaughan Williams said he preferred his music to be played on the wrong instruments rather than it remaining unplayed. My point is that we shouldn't get hung up about tiny details, when composers probably didn't care too much.

[cloughie]

Not Boulez, but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfk1OYstiao

Puts a whole new meaning on retro!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...and for something to be an arrangement, someone has to arrange it. In these instances no-one has.

[Bryn]

And yet - vocal music did not stay with Ancient Mesopotamian musical styles, simply because the human voice hasn't changed in the last 5,500 years.
Beethoven's music for piano is not so different from his music for orchestra. Vaughan Williams said he preferred his music to be played on the wrong instruments rather than it remaining unplayed. My point is that we shouldn't get hung up about tiny details, when composers probably didn't care too much.

Hmm. What is your evidence that the human voice has not changed in the past 5,500 years? Given that its basics have not changed much over that period, vocal techniques used in the European classical tradition have, if the work of HIPP vocal specialists is anything to go by. As to composers probably not caring, we know from Ries and others that Beethoven most certainly did care. It's a little ironic that one of Boulez's claims that I have most difficulty with is that regarding timbre. According to him, composers paid little or no attention to it before the twentieth century.