Prom 10 (21.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 3 & 4

[euthynicus]

The Fourth has been the least disastrously badly played and interpreted so far. Which isn't saying a lot. The slow movement really had direction and brooding purpose, even if he succumbed to the current solecism of slowing for the central climax of the descending clarinet over the ostinato. Happily the shape of the theme doesn't permit the Mantovani-esque sliding that disfigured the slow movements of 1 and 2. The scherzo and finale were well shaped, and they all conveyed well the importance of the rogue timpani B at the end of the first movement's development. Too bad about the lost, bewildered intro, which was attempting to channel Furtwangler in 42 but needed better playing to even come close, and the absurd trio.

The Dialogue worked much better in the hall than the previous night's Derive II, which needs harder edges and a greater degree of corporate responsibility (cf the Sinfonietta's performance with Malkki a few years ago) to make its mark. The Dialogue was also mixed with quite marvellous skill by the engineer chaps.

But, oh, the Eroica. The first movement went off OK, albeit without any discernible attack save the air-raid sirens from Berlin 44 breathing down our necks just after the climax of i. What to do with a Funeral March that is in all details of balance, tempo and articulation Siegfried's Funeral Music but with Beethoven's notes? Nothing after that mattered much, though I'm looking forward to hearing a proper, professional band on Sunday. Some of the playing has been truly shocking, even allowing for an interpretation that the best bands in the world would struggle to make any sense of except in so far as it might have occurred to RW as he sat pondering Parsifal in one of his silk-underpant days.

[Sapere Aude]

I wonder whether Barenboim will continue conducting Beethoven with a baton, and Boulez without. I would have thought the opposite would be more logical, with Beethoven being more straightforward rhythmically than Boulez,

It's not a rule, of course, but usually when conductors don't use a baton, it is either in pieces for smaller ensembles, or in pieces where a particularly expressive conducting is required, or in pieces in which the left and right hands may often need to be equally important and completely independent (rhythmically and/or expressively). Boulez himself in fact "introduced" this conducting technique for modern music. I remember him explaining it once. He said something like: "This new music needed a new conducting technique. Why should I have to give a cue with my left hand to someone playing on my right? What if I needed to show 3/8 to the left side of the ensemble and 3/4 for the right side?", etc. He concluded that it would be an advantage if both hands were equal in importance and completely independent (hence no baton).

[Hornspieler]

Thoroughly enjoyable accounts if not for me quite attaining the heights of Friday evening.

A masterpiece of understatement.

Well. Tonight's concert. They went out on a huge high last night, and sort of came in on a low tonight. That's what being human is like.

The fourth symphony is a big problem to perform. Not an easy one. It either works or not. Baremboim seemed out of salts, the orchestra had intonation and ensemble problems, and balance problems. They needed a night off. Sometimes for me the tempos seemed too slow. But who am I to criticise. No winks from DB and he looked unhappy. A lack of flow - which this work needs.

The Boulez was interesting and very well played by the clarinetist. The orchestra was too loud!! (Only joking ...)

A tour-de-force for the soloist. An overlong and repetitive trial for the listener. Totally out of place in this concert. (IMV)

The Eroica was better, but I felt still not entirely happy. (If you can describe it as happy ...)

I now agree with Bryn about the timps. Soft heads just don't work. Well, that's my opinion in that accoustic.

But as performing creative musicians we have to take a good night followed by a bad night. That is what the creative arts are. We can only get the magic occasionally - it does not just happen. Tomorrow is another day, a chance for re-birth.

Yes, they all looked tired, but a promenade concert at the Royal Albert Hall is no place to offer excuses.

Beethoven's 4th started badly.

A conductor cannot start a work by appearing to plunge both hand into the washing up bowl.

The slow movement dragged in places, which probably accounts for the clarinettist having to snatch a breath in her solo at the very point where she she should not have. (The fact that she appeared to be doing her aerobics at the same time could not have helped)
No problems with the scherzo and the finale, with those diabolical violin passages, was a scintillating triumph.
I totally disagree with KD's statement that this work was "a step back from the Eroica." Who on earth told her to say that?
With Furtwangler it was a case of "... you have to pick the right notch!" - but at least there was a notch to pick. *("Play on the 4th one down" was the usual consensus)

So, on to Beethoven's 3rd:

It would need a very experienced professional orchestra to achieve any sort of ensemble without the aid of the conductor. To quote the words, uttered over a hundred years ago by the great Hans Richter "gentlemen, zee ensemble ees not togezzer. You votch me1" (to which the members of the LSO chorussed in unison "Vee Votch! Vee Votch!")

The 1st movement was okay - just.
The Funeral march was laboured and uncertain. Much too slow (and sounded to me as if the procession was continually hampered by road works and traffic lights.)
The Scherzo was just about right. The fact that KD's interviewee pointed out that the work was scored for 3 horns was unfortunate, in that there were 4 horns on the stage, packed two and two and at no point in the trio did we see the three horns playing together.
(The extra player was the Assistant Principal {"Bumper Up"} totally unneccesary in this context.)
The finale was a shambles. Woodwinds completely out of sync with the strings and only those soft headed timp sticks holding things together. Barenboim appeared to have given up.

After the joys of the previous evening, this was a complete disaster. Such a pity!

Hornspieler

BTW: I have a life-sized bust of Beethoven in my study. A convenient (and very appropriate) place to park my headphones.
I could swear that when I turned away from the screen to look at him, there were tears running down his cheeks.

[salymap]

Oh dear, I think I'll delete my unheard recording - what a shame after the earlier performances.

[Ariosto]

A msterpiece of understatement.



A tour-de-force for the soloist. An overlong and repetitive trial for the listener. Totally out of place in this concert. (IMV)



Yes, they all looked tired, but a promenade concert at the Royal Albert Hall is no place to offer excuses.

Beethoven's 4th started badly.

A conductor cannot start a work by appearing to plunge both hand into the washing up bowl.

The slow movement dragged in places, which probably accounts for the clarinettist having to snatch a breath in her solo at the very point where she she should not have. (The fact that she appeared to be doing her aerobics at the same time could not have helped)
No problems with the scherzo and the finale, with those diabolical violin passages, was a scintillating triumph.
I totally disagree with KD's statement that this work was "a step back from the Eroica." Who on earth told her to say that?
With Furtwangler it was a case of "... you have to pick the right notch!" - but at least there was a notch to pick. *("Play on the 4th one down" was the usual consensus)

So, on to Beethoven's 3rd:

It would need a very experienced professional orchestra to achieve any sort of ensemble without the aid of the conductor. To quote the words, uttered over a hundred years ago by the great Hans Richter "gentlemen, zee ensemble ees not togezzer. You votch me1" (to which the members of the LSO chorussed in unison "Vee Votch! Vee Votch!")

The 1st movement was okay - just.
The Funeral march was laboured and uncertain. Much too slow (and sounded to me as if the procession was continually hampered by road works and traffic lights.)
The Scherzo was just about right. The fact that KD's interviewee pointed out that the work was scored for 3 horns was unfortunate, in that there were 4 horns on the stage, packed two and two and at no point in the trio did we see the three horns playing together.
(The extra player was the Assistant Principal {"Bumper Up"} totally unneccesary in this context.)
The finale was a shambles. Woodwinds complete out of sync with the strings and only those soft heade timp sticks holding things together. Barenboim appeared to have given up.

After the joys of the previous evening, this was a complete disaster. Such a pity!

Hornspieler

BTW: I have a life-sized bust of Beethoven in my study. A convenient (and very appropriate) place to park my headphones.
I could swear that when I turned away from the screen to look at him, there were tears running down his cheeks.

Very interesting and detailed analysis HS - I'm in agreement with all of that, not that you need me to say that! (apart from the bust which I can't verify! )

I think it was written all over DB's face - a bad night - and he was off form. Yes, the start of the fourth startled me too - it was strange, almost as if he had forgotten how it started (It can happen).

[Alison]

I'm keeping my recording. Plenty to enjoy in my humble opinion.

Hard drum sticks somehow wouldn't go with this overall orchestral sound in a way I am unable to explain.

The timp playing is quite assertive and perfectly ok in the overall scheme. I may crave more in later symphonies with 5(i) a particular
testing point.

[BBMmk2]

I liked this interpertation of the 4th, as well (apart from the Boulez, which Io found rather intolerable).

So far so good with thgis cycle of LvB's great canon.

I am pondering now about buying the set!

[salymap]

I'm very fond of the 4th Beethoven symphony but couldn't quite remember the opening and last night heard [or didn't hear] anything for several minutes. I cursed my tinnitus and switched off. Perhaps I will give it a go Alison, just to see/hear what happened later.

[Hornspieler]

The Fourth has been the least disastrously badly played and interpreted so far. Which isn't saying a lot. The slow movement really had direction and brooding purpose, even if he succumbed to the current solecism of slowing for the central climax of the descending clarinet over the ostinato. Happily the shape of the theme doesn't permit the Mantovani-esque sliding that disfigured the slow movements of 1 and 2. The scherzo and finale were well shaped, and they all conveyed well the importance of the rogue timpani B at the end of the first movement's development. Too bad about the lost, bewildered intro, which was attempting to channel Furtwangler in 42 but needed better playing to even come close, and the absurd trio......


.....But, oh, the Eroica. The first movement went off OK, albeit without any discernible attack save the air-raid sirens from Berlin 44 breathing down our necks just after the climax of i. What to do with a Funeral March that is in all details of balance, tempo and articulation Siegfried's Funeral Music but with Beethoven's notes? Nothing after that mattered much, though I'm looking forward to hearing a proper, professional band on Sunday. Some of the playing has been truly shocking, even allowing for an interpretation that the best bands in the world would struggle to make any sense of except in so far as it might have occurred to RW as he sat pondering Parsifal in one of his silk-underpant days.

euthynicus: I don't quite understand the reference to RW at the end of your post, but your review of the Eroica confirms much that other Message Boarders feel about last night's concert.

Many may consider that any criticism of DB's achievements with this West-East Orchestra is unfair, but that does not justify their inclusion on these promenade concerts, playing a repertoire which is clearly beyond them.

I take no pleasure in saying this.

HS

[ucanseetheend]

Obsession with Beethoven at the Proms has always been symptomatic of what I dislike about the Proms, Same old stuff. I mean they played the ninth twice in a year when it had to be cancelled the previous year.

[amateur51]

Several members have referred to West Eastern Divan Orchestra (WEDO) in terms that suggest that it is not a professional orchestra.

Do we know that this is the case?

[Ariosto]

euthynicus: I don't quite understand the reference to RW at the end of your post, but your review of the Eroica confirms much that other Message Boarders feel about last night's concert.

Many may consider that any criticism of DB's achievements with this West-East Orchestra is unfair, but that does not justify their inclusion on these promenade concerts, playing a repertoire which is clearly beyond them.

I take no pleasure in saying this.

HS

I would see any crticism of any concert by whoever as fair - and we will have to wait and see/hear how the EW Divan Orchestra manage to perform the remaining works. I would not go as far as to say that the repertoir was beyond them, as the first concert in my opinion was excellent, and as good if not better than many other bands may achieve. Certainly in comparisons against *some* of our own orchestras (Perhaps I mean the Halle, CBSO, BBC SO and others) they come out on top - but that is of course my own personal (and some would say strange) opinion. This orchestra is individualistic, is made up of younger and less experienced players, but gains from an enthusiasm and dedication not often seen and heard. Add a fine musician like DB and on a good night when everything goes well and the moon is in the right place, then we might be bowled over once again.

Am I being too positive, and too enthusiastic about an orchestra and a conductor who I usually admire? If I was more cynical I might be more critical - but you know me - I'm an optimist by nature - and a conductor lover ... (And I'm in a good mood as life seems pleasant at the moment, and I'm making plans for a nice future break ...)

[teamsaint]

I only heard last nights concert on tv speakers...hard for anybody to judge much !
but as a general point, one of the thing that lovers of classical music have is a proliferation of quality performing and performance.
So better , perhaps , to look for spirit, soul, enthusiasm, or whatever.There will have been "better" performance by more experienced, more talented orchestras.
But this lot really still do bring something fresh "to the party", and by common consent DB is a top notch musician.
I am inclined to enjoy what is put in front of me where I can.......

[King_Ouf_I]

Strange. Part 2 of tonight's Prom had turned up on the Radio 3 iPlayer, but not Part 1 (as yet).

I have a theory about this, as it is often the case that Part 2 arrives before Part 1. You may have noticed that Part 1 is actually a misnomer, because the recording extends to the entire concert. I'm guessing that the process of packaging the recordings for iPlayer can only begin when the 'programme' is complete, so both Part 1 and Part 2 start being processed at about the same time. Because Part 1 is much longer than Part 2, it takes longer to process, so Part 2 becomes available first.

Perhaps someone with techy know-how can refute my theory, otherwise I'm sticking to it!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Good to hear from you again, King_Ouf_I. You may well be right with your theory (and in any case, you are a "techy", aren't you?)