Prom 10 (21.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 3 & 4

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes. Techniques have changed, but the instrument itself probably has not, which challenges (though does not negate) the argument that composers would have written their music differently had they used more modern instruments.

[Bryn]

...and for something to be an arrangement, someone has to arrange it. In these instances no-one has.

An arrangement does not have to be notated. Simply playing on instruments with acoustic properties sufficiently different from those the original was written for is enough in my book. In addition to that, the issues of balance and how it is achieved by a conductor in cooperation with the musicians s/he directs, the tempo adjustments to deal with the different acoustic properties of the instruments used, etc., all lead towards the description "arrangement". When Beethoven produced the four handed percussive keyboard version of the Grosse Fuge, that was an arrangement (though not one of his best, to my ears), so to me is a modern instruments version of a Beethoven symphony. I don't object to such arrangements, but arrangements they are, as for as I'm concerned. I also admire W Carlos's Bach arrangements, by the way.

[Bryn]

I have a theory about this, as it is often the case that Part 2 arrives before Part 1. You may have noticed that Part 1 is actually a misnomer, because the recording extends to the entire concert. I'm guessing that the process of packaging the recordings for iPlayer can only begin when the 'programme' is complete, so both Part 1 and Part 2 start being processed at about the same time. Because Part 1 is much longer than Part 2, it takes longer to process, so Part 2 becomes available first.

Perhaps someone with techy know-how can refute my theory, otherwise I'm sticking to it!

Further evidence in support of your theory tonight. Acts 3 and 4 of Les Troyens have been made available, Acts 1, 2 and 5 are yet to appear.

[Boilk]

I wonder what Boulez would sound like on instruments of Beethoven's time. Probably awful - I'm not sure how keen I am on Beethoven played on the instruments of his time - particularly old pianos.

Here's Frank Zappa's Inca Roads (1975) played by a Baroque-sounding ensemble, I think there's a harpsichord and possibly a viol in there.

[Barbirollians]

If it makes you happy to delude yourself into thinking so ...

Another cheap remark . My purpose was to attempt to get you both to see how narrow minded the posts appeared even if neither of you were.

There is nothing wrong I suggest with forcefully expressed opinion . Belittling someone because they do not share your opinion as unfortunately your posts often do is another matter.

[euthynicus]

The problem with this kind of critique is its easy, sneering opacity.

If I don't hear Mantovani or Wagner or air raid sirens (vintage Berlin '44!) in the orchestral style (I wonder how many would...), all I see here are spiteful jokes. "Look how witty I am and how much I know". Its much easier to make smart-sounding, musically-referential wisecracks about how bad a thing is than to try to appreciate it for what was achieved. I tried to do this in my earlier post (msg.29). You'll doubtless think I'm cloth-eared or too uncritical, and perhaps I have more tolerance than some for the perils of live performance - but I still feel that the spirit and sonic effect of these performances ("as broadcast" of course), with my noted reservations about Eroica (i) and (ii), was wonderful - and truly, humanistically, Beethovenian.

The devil gets all the best lines, and it can be very amusing to read - or sometimes to write - clever(-clever) and witty dismissals of a performer's efforts to present a masterpiece. But "RW in his underpants"?! WS the marcia funebre really "in all details of balance tempo and articulation, Siegfried's Funeral March" with LVB's notes? (And did more than one listener think so?)

Surely a conductor's body language isn't always relevant to the sound produced - Remember Furtwangler's wavering ("coraggio, maestro" said an orchestral leader), or HvK moulding the air with his eyes closed?

Euthynicus and others... I may even laugh (well, just occasionally) at some of your humourist's remarks, but isn't there a danger that once you've though of your great line, whatever the truth of it, you just HAVE to put it in...?

'Easy, sneering opacity'. Now that's a great line. It doesn't matter whether it was crafted or off the cuff, does it? We speak as we find, if we're honest, and we attempt to do so concisely if we're not to tire the patience of ourselves and our readers. I'm not too bothered whether or not everyone around here knows WF's performances, or knows who RW is. If they do, great. If they don't, they can walk on. Yes, I really did experience a severe cognitive dissonance when I realised that I wasn't listening to a Funeral March by Beethoven but by Wagner (and, not that it matters, but yes, at least six other people I discussed it with that evening thought the same, albeit not in identically expressed terms, thank goodness). Whether or not it was a clever(-clever) thing to perceive, this was my perception. The portamento in the slow movements of 1 and 2 (cf Mantovani) is more easily verifiable. Either it's there, or it isn't, and it was, and (I venture) it was grotesquely inappropriate. Ditto the poor quality of the playing. Either the ensemble is wretched, the oboe playing sour, the dynamics only sketched, or they aren't. And they were. I've heard the WEDO play beautifully and accurately (a Brahms 4, a Tchaik 6 among others). But this group, this year, does not. Never mind. There'll be another year. And on the basis of these concerts, his projected Ring cycle with them is really something to look forward to.

[tantris]

Enjoyable concert I thought. Was anyone else put off by the principal clarinet's corybantics? It made the concert almost unwatchable for us, although we enjoyed the sounds she (and the rest of them) were making. Perhaps she was channeling the performance spirit of Jacqueline Du Pre, someone else I always found uncomfortable to watch on film (never saw her live I'm afraid).

[Hornspieler]

Enjoyable concert I thought. Was anyone else put off by the principal clarinet's corybantics? It made the concert almost unwatchable for us, although we enjoyed the sounds she (and the rest of them) were making. Perhaps she was channeling the performance spirit of Jacqueline Du Pre, someone else I always found uncomfortable to watch on film (never saw her live I'm afraid).

Exactly what I thought!
"Look, folks. I'm playing this really musically!"

Stuff and nonsense - and a waste of physical effort which should be concentrated on producing the notes. Not the only offender among the woodwind and very distracting for the onlooker.


HS

[mercia]

ah, that's called corybantics is it? [I thought she was a he ]

actually I find Mr Barenboim's expansive gesturing rather distracting too, but I guess it was never meant to be a visual experience

in the symphonies 1&2 concert I noticed he periodically stopped conducting altogether, to no obviously detrimental effect

[tantris]

ah, that's called corybantics is it? [I thought she was a he ]

I'm not sure it really is called corybantics, but I seem to remember seeing it used to describe that type of ...antics by (I think) Ernest Newman, one of the all-time great writers on music IMO.

And yes I'm pretty sure she was a she, and the oboe player, I bit less physical but up there with the gurning, was a he.

[mercia]

whoops, beg pardon, it was the oboist I was thinking of all along
difficult to corybant if one is a brass player I would think
whereas that oboist is in danger of taking someone's eye out with those flying elbows

[kernelbogey]

whoops, beg pardon, it was the oboist I was thinking of all along

I thought his oboe solos had an exemplary beauty. His movements and facial expressions wouldn't be particularly noticeable in a concert hall, so I find myself wondering why you would watch on television, where close-ups of soloists are guaranteed.

[mercia]

I find myself wondering why you would watch on television

after a while I didn't
[I can't think why there needs to be close ups of soloists anyway]

[salymap]

I find the extremely close close-ups very distracting. I'm sure this is fairly recent and we used to have far more shots of, perhaps, a whole section of the orchestra. I don't wish to gaze at their fingers orlook up their noses as they play - give them and us a bit of space please.

[kernelbogey]

...I can't think why there needs to be close ups of soloists anyway

I think firstly because it is a convention in tv and film to keep shots short and to mix long-, medium- and close-up-shots. A recently released East European film, which I have not yet seen, has very long takes; some found this intolerably boring and soporific.

The other reason, I think legitimately, is that tv is aimed at a popular audience. I think many people are genuinely interested in how instruments are played.

I don't own a television largely because I find its conventions tiresome. I looked in on bits of both the Barenboim concerts on iPlayer out of musical curiosity.