Prom 10 (21.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 3 & 4

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your previous one (which I agree with), I just hadn't seen it until I posted mine.

Absolutely no apology necessary, helio: our posts crossed and yours made an excellent point that I wished I'd made!

[jayne lee wilson]

The Fourth has been the least disastrously badly played and interpreted so far. Which isn't saying a lot. The slow movement really had direction and brooding purpose, even if he succumbed to the current solecism of slowing for the central climax of the descending clarinet over the ostinato. Happily the shape of the theme doesn't permit the Mantovani-esque sliding that disfigured the slow movements of 1 and 2. The scherzo and finale were well shaped, and they all conveyed well the importance of the rogue timpani B at the end of the first movement's development. Too bad about the lost, bewildered intro, which was attempting to channel Furtwangler in 42 but needed better playing to even come close, and the absurd trio.

The Dialogue worked much better in the hall than the previous night's Derive II, which needs harder edges and a greater degree of corporate responsibility (cf the Sinfonietta's performance with Malkki a few years ago) to make its mark. The Dialogue was also mixed with quite marvellous skill by the engineer chaps.

But, oh, the Eroica. The first movement went off OK, albeit without any discernible attack save the air-raid sirens from Berlin 44 breathing down our necks just after the climax of i. What to do with a Funeral March that is in all details of balance, tempo and articulation Siegfried's Funeral Music but with Beethoven's notes? Nothing after that mattered much, though I'm looking forward to hearing a proper, professional band on Sunday. Some of the playing has been truly shocking, even allowing for an interpretation that the best bands in the world would struggle to make any sense of except in so far as it might have occurred to RW as he sat pondering Parsifal in one of his silk-underpant days.

The problem with this kind of critique is its easy, sneering opacity.

If I don't hear Mantovani or Wagner or air raid sirens (vintage Berlin '44!) in the orchestral style (I wonder how many would...), all I see here are spiteful jokes. "Look how witty I am and how much I know". Its much easier to make smart-sounding, musically-referential wisecracks about how bad a thing is than to try to appreciate it for what was achieved. I tried to do this in my earlier post (msg.29). You'll doubtless think I'm cloth-eared or too uncritical, and perhaps I have more tolerance than some for the perils of live performance - but I still feel that the spirit and sonic effect of these performances ("as broadcast" of course), with my noted reservations about Eroica (i) and (ii), was wonderful - and truly, humanistically, Beethovenian.

The devil gets all the best lines, and it can be very amusing to read - or sometimes to write - clever(-clever) and witty dismissals of a performer's efforts to present a masterpiece. But "RW in his underpants"?! WS the marcia funebre really "in all details of balance tempo and articulation, Siegfried's Funeral March" with LVB's notes? (And did more than one listener think so?)

Surely a conductor's body language isn't always relevant to the sound produced - Remember Furtwangler's wavering ("coraggio, maestro" said an orchestral leader), or HvK moulding the air with his eyes closed?

Euthynicus and others... I may even laugh (well, just occasionally) at some of your humourist's remarks, but isn't there a danger that once you've though of your great line, whatever the truth of it, you just HAVE to put it in...?

[John Wright]

It's amusing that negative postings about the performance of Beethoven led to discussion. Negative postings about the Boulez just led to snide patronising remarks and grotesque smileys.

Thank you to those who explained not too technically what was wrong with the Eroica, good for me to watch again and study.

Anyway, Barenboim looked dreadfully unhappy after the Eroica. Will anyone interview him about the performance?

[Osborn]

I recorded from BBC4 and have only had a chance to watch and enjoy the Boulez and appreciate its solo performer. I do find some of the "reviews" here rather ferocious and after reading the links below by people who were in the hall and clearly found plenty to admire, I will watch and listen with an open mind, especially Katie in her dressing gown:

http://boulezian.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/prom-10-eisawedobarenboim-beethoven-and.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/proms/9415644/Proms-2012-Prom-10-West-Eastern-Divan-Orchestra-Daniel-Barenboim-Royal-Albert-Hall-review.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/jul/22/proms-9-10-barenboim-review

[Ariosto]

The problem with this kind of critique is its easy, sneering opacity.

If I don't hear Mantovani or Wagner or air raid sirens (vintage Berlin '44!) in the orchestral style (I wonder how many would...), all I see here are spiteful jokes. "Look how witty I am and how much I know". Its much easier to make smart-sounding, musically-referential wisecracks about how bad a thing is than to try to appreciate it for what was achieved. I tried to do this in my earlier post (msg.29). You'll doubtless think I'm cloth-eared or too uncritical, and perhaps I have more tolerance than some for the perils of live performance - but I still feel that the spirit and sonic effect of these performances ("as broadcast" of course), with my noted reservations about Eroica (i) and (ii), was wonderful - and truly, humanistically, Beethovenian.

The devil gets all the best lines, and it can be very amusing to read - or sometimes to write - clever(-clever) and witty dismissals of a performer's efforts to present a masterpiece. But "RW in his underpants"?! WS the marcia funebre really "in all details of balance tempo and articulation, Siegfried's Funeral March" with LVB's notes? (And did more than one listener think so?)

Surely a conductor's body language isn't always relevant to the sound produced - Remember Furtwangler's wavering ("coraggio, maestro" said an orchestral leader), or HvK moulding the air with his eyes closed?

Euthynicus and others... I may even laugh (well, just occasionally) at some of your humourist's remarks, but isn't there a danger that once you've though of your great line, whatever the truth of it, you just HAVE to put it in...?

Interesting but also impassioned arguments here Jayne. Keep them coming.

My wife (an astute lady even if I say so myself) has an answer to all of this, which seems to my twisted way of thinking (and twisted experiences) to be possibly true.

It runs like this:-

This young orchestra (full of beautiful young ladies and handsome young men) (YES, I'm incredibly jealous and full of envy, I admit it) - went, after their great concert with LVB's first and second symphonies, to an all night binge, had no sleep, but lots of sex, and the next concert found them totally knackered. At the rehearsal DB (who may or may not have indulged too) got very pissed off with them because they were frankly crap. So by the concert he was a bit up tight and out of salts, they were hung over, and there were no smiles and winks, and the music making was mostly pretty awful. So he was unsympathetic, conducted like a pissed off elder, and they were shamefaced but unable to deliver the goods.

It's quite simple when you see it like that, and yes, that often happens in the best and the worst of bands. Extra age and experience *sometimes* gets one out of a hole, if you are lucky ...

[Ariosto]

Several members have referred to West Eastern Divan Orchestra (WEDO) in terms that suggest that it is not a professional orchestra.

Do we know that this is the case?

Well, if the Halle and the CBSO are professional orchestras, then surely the E W Divan Orchestra must definitely be so!!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Negative postings about the Boulez just led to snide patronising remarks and grotesque smileys.

There have been three posts in response to "negative postings about the Boulez": nos 19, 20 and 30 - not a "grotesque smiley" between them. I do not read any "snide patronising" tone in #20 and I apologise for any snideness in my #19. Nonetheless, the point reported there (about Beethoven's contemporaries' preference for Eberl rather than the Eroica) were intended to convey a none-snide response to your (perhaps rhetorically-intended) question "What's the point" (of programming Boulez with Beethoven)?

Like Rosen and Pollini before him, Barenboim hears parallels between the two composers that he feels are important to share with his audiences. And, again like them, Barenboim believes it essential to the cultural development of the Art Form he has dedicated his life to serving that, just as Beethoven became more familiar to audiences through repeated performances from commited performers, so the Music of Boulez needs to be presented to new listeners through new generations of performers.

Again, apologies if this sounds "snide [and] patronising"; but (what I read as - and again I apologise if I have misread your tone as badly as you misread mine - ) your proud boast that you only listened to eight seconds of the Music merits no better

[kernelbogey]

Notwithstanding Signora Ariosto's intriguing hypothesis I think it's difficult not to lionise this band because of the agenda of its foundation by Barenboim and Said. The concerts' sell-out (mentioned in the Andrew Clements review in the Guardian flagged by Osborn n49) was obviously influenced by the orchestra's high profile. And should we not be influenced by that? Its existence is, in and of itself, a magnificent humanistic gesture - especially in the context of the appalling news from Syria. The players' energy is palpable. But as we say, Homer nods, and perhaps they had too much to live up to.

Andrew Clements praises the woodwind section: I was often struck by the beauty particularly of the oboe solos in both concerts.

[jayne lee wilson]

Interesting but also impassioned arguments here Jayne. Keep them coming.

My wife (an astute lady even if I say so myself) has an answer to all of this, which seems to my twisted way of thinking (and twisted experiences) to be possibly true.

It runs like this:-

This young orchestra (full of beautiful young ladies and handsome young men) (YES, I'm incredibly jealous and full of envy, I admit it) - went, after their great concert with LVB's first and second symphonies, to an all night binge, had no sleep, but lots of sex, and the next concert found them totally knackered. At the rehearsal DB (who may or may not have indulged too) got very pissed off with them because they were frankly crap. So by the concert he was a bit up tight and out of salts, they were hung over, and there were no smiles and winks, and the music making was mostly pretty awful. So he was unsympathetic, conducted like a pissed off elder, and they were shamefaced but unable to deliver the goods.

It's quite simple when you see it like that, and yes, that often happens in the best and the worst of bands. Extra age and experience *sometimes* gets one out of a hole, if you are lucky ...

Awfully plausible - and that's a funny story I CAN respond to! "The Musician's Tale" as it were...

(Mind you - the day after an, er, exciting night I tend to do 5 things at once at a hundred miles an hour! It's the day after the day after - assuming no further nocturnal thrills - that the problems of withdrawal begin, to wit profound gloom and raging munchies...)

[John Wright]

There have been three posts in response to "negative postings about the Boulez": nos 19, 20 and 30 - not a "grotesque smiley" between them.

Apologies about the smileys fh, I clearly imagined them

And thank you, your posting was most gracious, really I am sincere here. And I really did mean 'what's the point' because I then said I'm sure it was all explained in the interview with DB but I didn't listen to it, hoping for a briefer explanation here.

And my 8 seconds wasn't a proud boast, it was just a frustration, anger even, that a programme of LvB could be so rudely interrupted

[Ariosto]

And my 8 seconds wasn't a proud boast, it was just a frustration, anger even, that a programme of LvB could be so rudely interrupted

You have to accept that DB may know a little bit more than you or I know about Beethoven and Boulez. Rude interruptions are not necessarily rude to others. We should learn that other opinions exist and should maybe be taken seriously. We live to learn and extend our experiences. Maybe DB is just doing that.

[John Wright]

We should learn that other opinions exist and should maybe be taken seriously.

I agree, but no-one took my opinion of the Boulez interval seriously. It's Emperor's new clothing as far as I'm concerned.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Apologies about the smileys fh, I clearly imagined them

And thank you, your posting was most gracious, really I am sincere here. And I really did mean 'what's the point' because I then said I'm sure it was all explained in the interview with DB but I didn't listen to it, hoping for a briefer explanation here.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I agree, but no-one took my opinion of the Boulez interval seriously. It's Emperor's new clothing as far as I'm concerned.

OK - you're expressing a personal opinion. But please remember the calibre of Barenboim's Musicianship and intelligence - nobody can pull the wool over his eyes: he knows the real thing when he encounters it.

[heliocentric]

my 8 seconds wasn't a proud boast

Well sorry but it kind of is - to make such a sweeping judgement on music (sorry, "tooting") after eight seconds comes over as rather boorish, and certainly does not come over as the opening contribution to a discussion. I can't say I was particularly enthused about the prospect of discussing a performance and/or a composition with someone who's heard less than one per cent of it and isn't ashamed to say so when dismissing it as non-music.

So what about the Boulez piece? I find it much less engaging than Dérive 2; in particular, its electronic component seems reticent to the point of almost being an afterthought applied to a quite traditional musical concept, which is strange when you consider the (at the time) unparalleled technical resources Boulez had available to him when he wrote it. But expecting a radical use of electronics (or for that matter of instruments - the clarinet does very little in Dialogue that doesn't occur in the "classical" repertoire) from Boulez is a bit like expecting drama and emotion in his work; the fascination of it (if one happens to feel fascination for Boulez's work at all) lies elsewhere, in the self-referential play of minutest variegations in light, shadow, movement, melodic shape and so on. Or so I hear it. I have to be in the mood for Boulez, but I must say hearing him between Beethoven symphonies absolutely served to put me in that mood.