Prom 9 (20.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2

[salymap]

Good morning Sally

6 desks of 1st violins
5 desks of 2nd violins
4 desks of violas
3 desks of cellos
2 desks of double basses

For the woodwind: 3,3,2,2 would indicate

3 flutes (1 playing piccolo)
3 oboes (2+cor anglais)
2 clarinets
2 bassoons

For the brass: 4,3,3,1 would indicate
4 horns
3 trumpets
3 trombones
1 tuba

Clear as mud?

Don't start me off on percussion!

HS

Dear Sir,I spent the best years of my youth surrounded by orchestral parts and 'booking them out' to orchestral librarians, etc so do understand the jargon'

Classical orchestra about 65432 {13] timps,perc, harp. The 13 in brackets would be double woodwind, 2 horns,2 trumpets, etc.

Good morning to you, too.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Dear Sir,I spent the best years of my youth surrounded by orchestral parts and 'booking them out' to orchestral librarians, etc so do understand the jargon'

Classical orchestra about 65432 {13] timps,perc, harp. The 13 in brackets would be double woodwind, 2 horns,2 trumpets, etc.

Good morning to you, too.

[Ariosto]

http://youtu.be/izTVmeaW1bQ

I listened to about 5 minutes of this link to the first symphony of Beethoven.

Fine if you like this. It happens that I don't.

My reasons?

The strings seem to be playing on fairly modern instruments with modern bows but they are playing without any vibrato and they surge through the bow on longer notes. To my ear that is an ugly sound and ugly phrasing.

The woodwind seem to be mostly if not all on old instruments (Period instruments, although maybe modern versions i.e. made recently but copies of period instruments). Wooden flutes, that sort of thing, and a weird oboe to my eyes.

Personally I don't like the sound (or the intonation) of the woodwind and I thought the balance (OK - its Youtube) was a bit too much in favour of the strings.

On a totally personal note I would always prefer the Baremboim orchestra - for sound and phrasing.

But of course I realise that other people like other things (Some people like eating snails ...)

[heliocentric]

Beware of the Trojans to!! (They might sneek in throiugh a horse!!(neigh!!) :)

So... hang on... the Trojans built a wooden horse in order to launch a surprise attack on themselves?

[Nick Armstrong]

Krivine's sublimely joyful performances have seldom been off my player in the past eight months - Music-making that's made me (sour, cynical old windbag that I am) weep with delight!

Blimey that's quite a review!! Are you deliberately trying to empty my bank account this weekend, ferney??!

[amateur51]

Right I've jut finished listening to/watching WEDO players conducted by Barenboim in Boulez's Dérive 2

I enjoyed watching it because there was a lot going on and it was all interesting though I confess I did not understand it. However it was not by any means a total turn-off although its length made it a bit of a marathon.

I was tremendously impressed by the intensity that the players showed but most of all by Barenboim's intensity and commitment. He was using an entirely different conducting style; he clearly knew the piece even tho his nose was stuck in the score (as Boulez's nose would have been, I imagine). I admired the Schoenberg pieces that Barenboim conducted last year (?) and this Boulez performance has increased my admiration for him as a musician.

It will be interesting for me to listen to Beethoven symphony no 2 after this. I'm anticipating something of a revelation

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So... hang on... the Trojans built a wooden horse in order to launch a surprise attack on themselves?

No wonder they lost!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Blimey that's quite a review!! Are you deliberately trying to empty my bank account this weekend, ferney??!

John Skelton expressed similar enthusiasm for Krivine's CD set when it was last discussed on these Boards.

[Hornspieler]

Dear Sir,I spent the best years of my youth surrounded by orchestral parts and 'booking them out' to orchestral librarians, etc so do understand the jargon'

Classical orchestra about 65432 {13] timps,perc, harp. The 13 in brackets would be double woodwind, 2 horns,2 trumpets, etc.

Good morning to you, too.

Yes, of course! Silly of me - and my profound apologies.

Actually, the information was also for the benefit of any other message boarders who might not have known the answer to what appeared to be your question.

HS

[salymap]

Yes, of course! Silly of me - and my profound apologies.

Actually, the information was also for the benefit of any other message boarders who might not have known the answer to what appeared to be your question.

HS

That's okay. No apology needed.

[edashtav]

The Beethoven Symphonies 1&2 received lovely performances. Dare I suggest this was a German sound of what we may (or may not) call the old school - the strings full, warm and rich, the wind solos clear but blended in (never too individualised) the brass well rounded into the orchestral texture. The whole sound is founded on a firm bass of centrally placed lower strings (violins antiphonal) and yes, an emphasised timpani - on HDs this latter appeared centre right, louder and, well, "thumpier" than usual. Was it positioned unusually on the stage? Or was it emphasised by the placing of the strings? It didn't trouble me unduly, but I was more aware of its slightly hollow resonance than usual. Barenboim's readings were "mainstream" (up to the 1990s at least!) but beautifully moulded in slow movements and with attack aplenty in the scherzos and allegros.

It strikes me yet again that however we view "tradition" (some may wish to see these performances as from an older tradition, but if you accept the philosophy of HIPPs performances you might see it as newer...) all that matters is the quality of the performance itself. Tonight, that was of a high order.

When you then consider the creation of this orchestra, and the character of the man leading it, the rapprochement with the great tradition of Beethoven performance becomes a very special thing.

I agree with your assessment of the two Beethoven symphonies, Jayne Lee. I loved their solid, irreproachable virtues that were way beyond the reach of mere fashion. I was aware of a master conductor at work: every note had been considered and given a weight, timbre and attack appropriate to its phrase and the wider, structural context. If you like, Barenboim achieved total integration.

For a moment, I saw a wider context that embraced total or integral serialism, and in doing so, the idea linking a Beethoven symphony series to works by Boulez started to make real sense.

Were I to pick out one element of the orchestra's playing that delighted me most, it would be the life and energy of its rhythms. To make a bad pun, the West - East Divan created a beautifully structured divan that supported a fully sprung mattress of melody.

[Sapere Aude]

To my mind this is a false comparison, the history of science has shown that what is true one day, is not the next.

I'm sorry to "derail" the topic, but that affirmation always bothers me! It is a huge generalization! It insults scientists and offends science!

If some things are occasionally disproved in science, that doesn't invalidate science itself, and every other scientific fact! If anything, on the contrary, it strengthens the validity of science, since in a permanent quest for "truth", everything is always open to further investigation - nothing is "protected" from it! That is exactly its strength! The fact that every "truth" is under permanent scrutiny!

That just shows in fact how difficult is for a "scientific truth" to be accepted as "true", and how "true" many scientific discoveries really proved, since they still stand "true" after centuries or even millennia of close investigation!

Of course we, humans, cannot know and understand any truth as "absolute truth", thus any "truth" we discover, no matter how close to "absolute", may still need to be corrected. That, however, doesn't compromise the quest for truth that is fundamental to science! Without this quest, and without climbing on this pyramid of scientific truths, we'd still be down there in caves!

[bluestateprommer]

Going into the Barenboim/WEDO Beethoven performances via the wonders of iPlayer, I wondered in advance if the performances would resemble generally Barenboim's Teldec cycle with the Staatskapelle Berlin, or at least my general memories of it. For me, the answer has been yes. Barenboim's overall interpretation strikes me as "old school", in the Furtwängler-like or Klemperer-like sense, namely with relatively large forces and tempi in their style, as well as inconsistencies with exposition repeats (taken in the 1st movement of 1, omitted in the 1st movement of 2 here). When I've heard Barenboim as conductor try to "channel" Furtwängler, I've generally found the results mannered. I found occasional moments like that in his renditions of 1 & 2, which they were OK, and the orchestra is very fine. But I wasn't particularly blown away. Since many people here seemed to love DB's interpretation of 2, I gave it a second listen to see if I was missing anything. It grew a little more on me the 2nd time around, but not enough to change my opinion radically.

I also wondered if it might not have been better to use a "club sandwich" format for this program, given the stated duration of the Boulez at ~45 minutes. Maybe a lot of people would have chosen to linger in the lobby or at the bar during the Boulez if that had been the case, with an intermission between LvB 1 and the Boulez, but who's to say, since that's not how the concert was divided. Putting the Boulez in the 1st half, directly after LvB 1, made for an inhumanely long 1st half, IMHO. The select group of WEDO musicians played Dérive 2 splendidly, but even my brain could only take so much, trying to listen to both works in one shot. Still, praise to the WEDO musicians and DB for having the guts to do it.

His [Norrington's] own performances with the Stuttgarters were similarly arrangements for modern forces, though perhaps more in the performance style of Beethoven's time regarding such matters as finger wobbling.

There's that phrase again: 'arrangements for modern forces'. How can the use of modern instruments be considered an 'arrangement'?

For DJ, I don't know if you folks use a phrase that we use in America, "drinking the Kool-Aid". But to answer your question, which was rhetorical, of course: as you and I both know, the use of modern instruments is not an 'arrangement'. Whether the OAE or the LPO use the Barenreiter edition of the Beethoven symphonies, the notes and orchestration are the same, regardless of the age of the instruments. Likewise, for a Beethoven piano sonata, when Melvyn Tan plays a fortepiano or Imogen Cooper plays a concert grand piano, the score is exactly the same. Cooper's performance is not of an "arrangement".

I have also to admit that my brain can only take so much of Tom Service's bouncing off the walls hyper-enthusiasm, which no doubt is genuine, but is also frankly way OTT. He makes Petroc seem like an utter oasis of calm. And I thought Americans were really irksome at the "hard sell". (Actually, we are.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But to answer your question, which was rhetorical, of course: as you and I both know, the use of modern instruments is not an 'arrangement'. Whether the OAE or the LPO use the Barenreiter edition of the Beethoven symphonies, the notes and orchestration are the same, regardless of the age of the instruments. Likewise, for a Beethoven piano sonata, when Melvyn Tan plays a fortepiano or Imogen Cooper plays a concert grand piano, the score is exactly the same. Cooper's performance is not of an "arrangement".
, .)

Of course it isn't an arrangement if played from the same score. However, it could be regarded so in the case of the "touching up" of orchestration, as done by Weingartner and Stokowski. But composers sometimes did this themselves - e.g. Mozart's 40th symphony.

[Resurrection Man]

Currently listening to the afternoon repeat as Boulez is being performed (if that is what is happening) and wondering to myself that perhaps I should have gone and made that cup of tea. Plink..plonk...leaves this listener cold. When does it end? Soon, I hope!