Prom 9 (20.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Hardly. His own performances with the Stuttgarters were similarly arrangements for modern forces, though perhaps more in the performance style of Beethoven's time regarding such matters as finger wobbling.

You know, I really think you believe that. Half a century before these symphonies were composed, the Roger Norrington of his time (father of a great composer) wrote a treatise on the subject, but whoever listened to Leopold? His son certainly didn't.

[Bryn]

Indeed, Leopold had some stern words to say about excessive finger wobbling, did he not?

"There are some players who tremble at every note, as if they had a chronic fever. One should use the tremolo (vibrato) only in those places where Nature herself would produce it."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, but all that does is to confirm that many players did use lots of vibrato. Whether or not you, I, or others think it's a good idea is quite a different matter.

[Bryn]

Yes, but all that does is to confirm that many players did use lots of vibrato. Whether or not you, I, or others think it's a good idea is quite a different matter.

How did "some players" transmute into "many players"? Leopold's point was surely very much in line with Norrington's view. One has only to listen to his recordings of the Beethoven symphonies with the Stuttgarters to recognise that string vibrato is used, but sparingly, as Leopold suggests.

[DublinJimbo]

Hardly. His [Norrington's] own performances with the Stuttgarters were similarly arrangements for modern forces, though perhaps more in the performance style of Beethoven's time regarding such matters as finger wobbling.

There's that phrase again: 'arrangements for modern forces'. How can the use of modern instruments be considered an 'arrangement'? (And oh how I wish Norrington didn't have to crop up yet again and hijack a perfectly good thread.)

[Osborn]

Your #22 is perfect Ariosto.

[Nick Armstrong]

Suzy Klein interview,tosh.

Incidentally, a bit of a give-away from Ms Klein in the introduction. She said this:

"We often say there's a sense of anticipation before a concert... Tonight, there really is."

Ergo: all the other times... well, you fill in the appropriate comment...

[amac4165]

Edit: Bryn - the timps were often distorted (at least on the TV broadcast) - due to the fact that the BBC can no longer hear and broadcast sound properly. They are total amateurs now.

to be honest they did sound a bit odd (unfocused) in the hall - otherwise an excellent concert - 2nd was v good ihmo

Boulez was interesting - 1st got going in the 3 and 4th movements I thought


amac

pity the happy clappers were out in force

[ahinton]

I must admit - I did not think Boulez composed works as long as this. Evidently I was wrong.

He doesn't usually - and even this one is an extended revision of the original in any case; Pli selon Pli is the only other really big work of Boulez.

[jayne lee wilson]

He doesn't usually - and even this one is an extended revision of the original in any case; Pli selon Pli is the only other really big work of Boulez.

Perhaps not quite...? In Boulez' own DG recordings, Repons (1981-84),runs to 42'31, Sur Incises (1996-98) to 37'06, and the orchestral elaborations of the Notations (6 so far) to over 37'00 in Robertson's Naive Recording...
...but how does one listen to Derive 2? As an endless melody - or a dozen endless melodies! As a jazz improvisation, as a hugely expanded trio sonata from a New Musical Offering, a continuous flow of invention and evolution... so one listens for the Moment, the sudden epiphanies of colour, rhythm, texture... do you travel through Derive, or arrive anywhere at its close...?

The Beethoven Symphonies 1&2 received lovely performances. Dare I suggest this was a German sound of what we may (or may not) call the old school - the strings full, warm and rich, the wind solos clear but blended in (never too individualised) the brass well rounded into the orchestral texture. The whole sound is founded on a firm bass of centrally placed lower strings (violins antiphonal) and yes, an emphasised timpani - on HDs this latter appeared centre right, louder and, well, "thumpier" than usual. Was it positioned unusually on the stage? Or was it emphasised by the placing of the strings? It didn't trouble me unduly, but I was more aware of its slightly hollow resonance than usual. Barenboim's readings were "mainstream" (up to the 1990s at least!) but beautifully moulded in slow movements and with attack aplenty in the scherzos and allegros.

It strikes me yet again that however we view "tradition" (some may wish to see these performances as from an older tradition, but if you accept the philosophy of HIPPs performances you might see it as newer...) all that matters is the quality of the performance itself. Tonight, that was of a high order.

When you then consider the creation of this orchestra, and the character of the man leading it, the rapprochement with the great tradition of Beethoven performance becomes a very special thing.

[Vile Consort]

I'm watching on BBC4.

Can regular Prom-goers clarify for me whether the tacky backdrops are in evidence at all concerts in the RAH, or just at those which are televised?

It's the BBC - there have to be lots of gaudy colours. Everybody who works on set design for the BBC trained to design childrens' toys. Subtlety is unheard of.

[Osborn]

...but how does one listen to Derive 2? As an endless melody - or a dozen endless melodies! ... as a hugely expanded trio sonata from a New Musical Offering, a continuous flow of invention and evolution...?...

I've always liked Derive 2 on CD but seeing Barenboim conduct it was a whole new experience. He was a wonderful guide. Stunning playing by all.

Dare I suggest this was a German sound of what we may (or may not) call the old school - the strings full, warm and rich, the wind solos clear but blended in (never too individualised) the brass well rounded into the orchestral texture...

Yes, the foundation of burnished, rich strings, overall balance and transparency of sections reminded me of Barenboim's magnificent Staatskapelle. I was immensely impressed by the musicians' determination to perform at the absolute limit of their extraordinary collective ability and Barenboim's trust in them - from time to time just watching like a kindly, proud uncle.

[Ariosto]

Your #22 is perfect Ariosto.

Thank you Osborn. I felt inspired enough by a great conductor and musician working with a wonderful young orchestra to let my feelings and enthusiasm carry me away. I would have loved to have been playing with them, and to have had that experience first hand. None of my past Prom performance experiences have been up to much - often because of inadequate stick wavers - so this Prom was like re-discovering great music.

[Hornspieler]

I've always liked Derive 2 on CD but seeing Barenboim conduct it was a whole new experience. He was a wonderful guide. Stunning playing by all.
Yes, the foundation of burnished, rich strings, overall balance and transparency of sections reminded me of Barenboim's magnificent Staatskapelle. I was immensely impressed by the musicians' determination to perform at the absolute limited of their extraordinary collective ability and Barenboim's trust in them - from time to time just watching like a kindly, proud uncle.

My only worry was that the two oboists might be involved in a nasty collison at some point. Does it really aid musicianship to weave around like a shadow-boxer in this way. The lady playing clarinet was equally mobile. But my pick of the woodwinds was the first bassoon.
Total economy of effort (reminded me of Pierre Fournier) but a really good bassoon sound - and right on the ball.

However, I really enjoyed this concert and Ariosto is right on the mark with his appraisal.

The performance of Beethoven 2nd (it is the first symphony that I ever played in, so has a particular significance for me) is the best that I have ever heard.

I look forward to the rest of the Beethoven cycle - well almost all of the rest!

HS

[Ariosto]

The Beethoven Symphonies 1&2 received lovely performances. Dare I suggest this was a German sound of what we may (or may not) call the old school - the strings full, warm and rich, the wind solos clear but blended in (never too individualised) the brass well rounded into the orchestral texture. The whole sound is founded on a firm bass of centrally placed lower strings (violins antiphonal) and yes, an emphasised timpani - on HDs this latter appeared centre right, louder and, well, "thumpier" than usual. Was it positioned unusually on the stage? Or was it emphasised by the placing of the strings? It didn't trouble me unduly, but I was more aware of its slightly hollow resonance than usual. Barenboim's readings were "mainstream" (up to the 1990s at least!) but beautifully moulded in slow movements and with attack aplenty in the scherzos and allegros.

Interesting and thoughtful comments Jayne, as usual.

I thought of it more of a Middle Eastern/Jewish sound with strings having the freedom (and I know encouragement) to use plenty of bow, leading to a rich and sonorous sound, with warm left hands. (Sorry Bryn!!) Clear and highly articulated wind playing - and even if the oboes and clarinets did move around a lot, it was not moving against the music. There are reasons for and against moving around whilst playing, both schools of thought on this subject are valid, and interesting that HS has mentioned it.

It strikes me yet again that however we view "tradition" (some may wish to see these performances as from an older tradition, but if you accept the philosophy of HIPPs performances you might see it as newer...) all that matters is the quality of the performance itself. Tonight, that was of a high order.

When you then consider the creation of this orchestra, and the character of the man leading it, the rapprochement with the great tradition of Beethoven performance becomes a very special thing.

Yes, good points again Jayne - the HIP as against tradition sometimes gets in the way. But in the end we like what we like and dislike what we don't like, to be totally obvious.

The Boulez was a complex piece, and as far as I could tell, very well performed. Almost every bar had a different time signature and Baremboim used a much more technical style of conducting so that every player was in the same ballpark. I'm not sure if the players and conductor could enjoy this music quite as much as the Beethoven, as it was stretching every one's technical abilities 100% of the time.

I also found the piece rather long and a bit repetitive, and it is not something I'm going to go out of my way to hear again. Having said that, I'm sure intense study of a year or more of the score would yield results and a change of opinion.