Prom 9 (20.7.12): Beethoven Cycle – Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2

[heliocentric]

as Mozart used the instruments he was familiar with (but different from those Handel would have known) there doesn't seem anything untoward in using modern violins, strings etc.

As I mentioned previously Mozart also changed the harmony in places to something more "contemporary" - so when "modern" instruments are used should the harmony not be spiced up accordingly?

Again it seems to me strange (this is a general comment, not directed at anyone in particular) that so often the belief that modern instruments are "better" is held by those for whom the notion that modern music might by the same token be "better" would be completely anathema.

[cloughie]

There have already been two recordings of the first movement of Beethoven's 10th, realised by Dr Barry Cooper. I like it.

LSO Wyn Morris is one I have - I was so impressed I listened once and its been on the shelves ever since - maybe I should dig it out for another listen.

[Ariosto]

We can, however, know what it didn't sound like. It didn't sound like it was played on violins with steel strings, for example.

In fact very few contemporary violinists, cellists or viola wallahs play with steel strings. Usually those that do have a reason, i.e. very sweaty hands.

Mostly it is alluminium covered gut or synthetic cores. Some even use pure gut on a modern setup.

Just a few facts to set the record straight.

[Ariosto]

As I said, that simply isn't true; we have a pretty good idea.

You may like to say this, but I'm afraid unless you were there at the time, you can't really make that claim. (Unless you happen to be well over 200 years old ...)

I heard the JS Bach Goldberg Variations played on a modern Bosendorfer by a friend of mine at a concert last night, and it sounded wonderful. (This performer has studied harpsichord and all the old conventions as well - and taught at university level, so that might say something?)

[Pabmusic]

...For instance, in the fifth symphony, where the bassoons are given the same four bars as the horns have played, but in a different key (not available on the valveless horn of the day without changing crooks) HW has inserted those notes into the horn parts. Similarly, I recall, with the Coriolan overture and Leonora No 3, to reinforce or add what LvB would probably have written, to continue a phrase if a valved horn was available....

Can I recommend On the Performance of Beethoven's Symphonies by Felix Weingartner, where the great conductor gives very precise details of 'additions' in the horn and trumpet parts, as well as myriad other changes. Also, Norman del Mar's Conducting Beethoven, where, some 70 years later, he recommends several of the same changes. These are thoughtful, reasoned essays, not capricious whims.

[heliocentric]

You may like to say this, but I'm afraid unless you were there at the time, you can't really make that claim. (Unless you happen to be well over 200 years old ...)

So according to you, historical research yields no useful information...? Can we not be sure that anything ever took place in the past without having been there ourselves? What a strange attitude.

Of course Bach played well on a "modern" piano sounds good. Not one person here has said it doesn't. What it certainly doesn't sound like, though, is anything Bach would have heard; while a harpsichord (or indeed a fortepiano) sounds like something Bach would have played every day. Surely that's uncontroversial.

[aeolium]

Again it seems to me strange (this is a general comment, not directed at anyone in particular) that so often the belief that modern instruments are "better" is held by those for whom the notion that modern music might by the same token be "better" would be completely anathema.

Well, that wasn't a belief I expressed, and I don't hold it - I listen to performances on modern and period instruments. I was just wondering whether a pedantically historical approach to an arrangement that was quite ahistorical was always required, that's all. As it happens, I don't think either of the Mackerras recordings of the Messias was HIPP (certainly not the later RPO one which was sung in English).

[Ariosto]

So according to you, historical research yields no useful information...? Can we not be sure that anything ever took place in the past without having been there ourselves? What a strange attitude.

Of course Bach played well on a "modern" piano sounds good. Not one person here has said it doesn't. What it certainly doesn't sound like, though, is anything Bach would have heard; while a harpsichord (or indeed a fortepiano) sounds like something Bach would have played every day. Surely that's uncontroversial.

We can believe that certain things happened, but we can't conjure up the sound they made in the past, simply because we do not know how they did it, and even if we did know, we still can't be certain that it resulted in the sort of HIPP sound that we hear now. That is why when the HIP people claim to be authentic, I find them arrogant. And titles such as "Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment" are equally arrogant, especially as I've heard them play as individuals, and they are (in my opinion) pretty dire. (I think Mozart, Haydn et al would have kicked them out of the room).

[amateur51]

We can believe that certain things happened, but we can't conjure up the sound they made in the past, simply because we do not know how they did it, and even if we did know, we still can't be certain that it resulted in the sort of HIPP sound that we hear now. That is why when the HIP people claim to be authentic, I find them arrogant. And titles such as "Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment" are equally arrogant, especially as I've heard them play as individuals, and they are (in my opinion) pretty dire. (I think Mozart, Haydn et al would have kicked them out of the room).

You were doing so well until you started channelling Wolfie and Papa Joe, Ariosto

[heliocentric]

Well, that wasn't a belief I expressed, and I don't hold it

That was completely clear.

Ariosto, "HIPP people" claim (the clue is in the acronym) to be "historically informed". A performance can be "authentic" no matter what instruments it's played on or in what style. I see now you've retreated from claiming that period instruments are worse than modern ones to a claim that performers of period instruments are worse than performers of modern ones. As for arrogance, your assertion that historical research can tell us nothing about how music sounded in the past (while at the same time claiming somehow to know what Mozart or Haydn would have thought of the musicians of the OAE), let alone your assertion that anyone thinks otherwise is talking "UTTER RUBBISH!!!" might be thought of as embodying just the tiniest pinch of arrogance, don't you think?

[Ariosto]

That was completely clear.

Ariosto, "HIPP people" claim (the clue is in the acronym) to be "historically informed". A performance can be "authentic" no matter what instruments it's played on or in what style. I see now you've retreated from claiming that period instruments are worse than modern ones to a claim that performers of period instruments are worse than performers of modern ones. As for arrogance, your assertion that historical research can tell us nothing about how music sounded in the past (while at the same time claiming somehow to know what Mozart or Haydn would have thought of the musicians of the OAE), let alone your assertion that anyone thinks otherwise is talking "UTTER RUBBISH!!!" might be thought of as embodying just the tiniest pinch of arrogance, don't you think?

I think you need to get a sense of humour, my mention of Mozart and Haydn was meant to be a joke. I wouldn't need them to kick the OAE lot out - I'd do it myself. No, if you can't see the lack of logic in your arguments and you are unable to read the arrogance displayed by a lot (not all) of the HIPP people, then there is not a lot I can add.

You stick to the "old" stuff and I'll stick to the modern stuff.

[JohnSkelton]

You stick to the "old" stuff and I'll stick to the modern stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh4Htcr50M4

Enjoy!

[heliocentric]

You stick to the "old" stuff and I'll stick to the modern stuff.

So what did you think of the Boulez?

[Ariosto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh4Htcr50M4

Enjoy!

Great stuff, I love it.

[Ariosto]

So what did you think of the Boulez?

I liked some of it - but thought it was a bit repetitive. A bit old fashioned now in some ways.