Prom 7 (18.7.12): Handel – Water Music and Music for the Royal Fireworks

[BBMmk2]

Absolutely loved the conductor! Who cares about the over done gesticulations if it brings results!!

I wish KD could've been a bit more imagi9natiove about her contribution in the interview!

[Ferretfancy]

Perhaps those who didn't enjoy watching M. Niquet would have appreciated him better if they had actually been there. Granted, his mephistophelian appearance was a bit bizarre, but from the Arena it was all part of the pleasure in performing that this band displayed. I suppose you could say that his strolling and waving performance was in period character. I haven't yet watched the TV presentation, but it rarely does proper justice to an event in which the audience should be able to select their view rather than that of the vision mixer.

[ardcarp]

There are so many successful conducting styles, I hate to comment, But he got what he wanted which is all that matters. I'm glad you posted, Mary, 'cos I'm sure we both enjoy the natural open notes of the horn in you-know-what!

[Bryn]

For those not afraid of unstopped horns, may I recommend:



There is also this:



which I suspect may turn out to be the same recording, but it's much cheaper "Used - Good" on amazon.co.uk.

[Bryn]

Well, if it's not beneath either of our horn-blowers' dignity, they could read the programme notes freely provided by the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2012/july-18/14226/programme-notes

where, for instance, it is related how Handel "insisted" on the inclusion of strings, and won out.

It is also just possible that Niquet and his hornblowers did a little research of their own before embarking on their many, many performances of these masterpieces.

[Mary Chambers]

I'm glad you posted, Mary, 'cos I'm sure we both enjoy the natural open notes of the horn in you-know-what!

I have to admit that did enter my head

[heliocentric]

totally acceptable and enjoyable to today's ears.

I have today's ears and found it totally acceptable and enjoyable. I think you may be referring to yesterday's ears.

[salymap]

And if waldhorn feels like telling us the whole story of the trip up the Thames some time ago, I for one would be interested.

I think I saw it, if it was directed by Andrew Manze, playing his violin and looking slightly sea-sick to me.

Afraid, growing up with the doubtless discredited Handel/Harty versions the recent perfornmances were not for me. Sorry.

[Bryn]

And if waldhorn feels like telling us the whole story of the trip up the Thames some time ago, I for one would be interested.

I think I saw it, if it was directed by Andrew Manze, playing his violin and looking slightly sea-sick to me. .. .

Ah, so it was not the Portsmouth Sinfonia's Thames boat trip that was being referred to. I guess Michael Nyman might well have been one of the horn players on that occasion.

[salymap]

Ah, so it was not the Portsmouth Sinfonia's Thames boat trip that was being referred to. I guess Michael Nyman might well have been one of the horn players on that occasion.

I don'tknow Bryn. The Manze one was the only one I've seen/heard of.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don'tknow Bryn. The Manze one was the only one I've seen/heard of.

Yes: a documentary first broadcast about 10 years ago, introduced by Peter Ackroyd.

I thought it was an excellent programme, with historic background, acoustic tests (how far the sound of each instrument "carried" across water (IIRC, the Double Bass couldn't be heard on its own, but could when the Horns were playing, too?) and a selection of pieces from the Suites played by the English Concert led by Manze in period costume on an authentic barge.

[Tony Halstead]

Not quite 10 years ago. Maybe 2005? ( I need to consult my diaries about this but does it really matter?)
When this project was announced and 'diaried' for the English Concert I was very excited about its potential for 'total authenticity'.
Having taken part in many CD recordings of Händel's Water Music for more than 30 years I really and truly wished to make this one the BEST EVER.
My former recorded efforts were
1) English Chamber Orchestra, George Malcolm, 1978?, 'modern' valved horn, 'modern' A 440 pitch.
2) English Baroque Soloists, John Eliot Gardiner, 1980?, valveless horn, using 'minimalist' right-hand technique to correct the intonation of the 11th harmonic ( written F - too sharp as an 'open' tone) and the 14th harmonic ( written 'A' as in the Britten Serenade).
3) English Concert, Trevor Pinnock, 1982, with the same technique as outlined above.
4) English Baroque Soloists, Sir John Eliot Gardiner, 1991? using a valveless horn copied from a 1720 original but with 'vent holes' added to correct the intonation of the 11th and 13th/ 14th harmonics.
NB The 'vent holes' are NOT 'authentic' but at least allow the listener to hear the sound of the 'open belled' baroque horn without the 'aural pain' of the uncorrected 4th and 6th degrees of the horn's top melodic octave.
5) King's Consort, Robert King, 1997? with the same playing technique as described above.
6) BBC TV programme (2005?) which included sailing on the Thames on an 'authentic barge'.

The first ( excellent IMV) recording of the music for this TV programme was made with the horn players and trumpet players using NO vent holes and ( for the horn players) NO 'hand-in-the bell' technique.
The conductor ( Andrew Manze) had particularly requested the brass players to play on their 'open harmonics' but to try as much as possible to correct the intonation by sheer 'lip technique' and 'will power'.

During a somewhat gruelling 6-hour recording session in the North London 'Air Studio', all the English Concert players 'pulled together' ;
the oboes and violins very obligingly 'tweaked' the intonation of their 4ths and 6ths to accommodate the brass players. ( Would that M.Niquet's oboes and violins had done this... not exactly difficult for a musician with any degree of aural sensibility).

At the end of that recording session we were all quite elated, having done what we felt was probably at that time the very first 'truly authentic' recording of the 'Water Music' - warts and all...
And then... disaster.... the BBC TV 'producer' ( who hadn't been in the studio when we recorded the music!) turned up the next day, listened to the recording, and said 'I'm not allowing this to be used'!
'Why not' asked Mr Manze.
'Because it's simply not up to BBC standards of intonation' she retorted...
At this point - sorry to say - I blame Mr Manze who instead of sticking to his guns, simply caved in, went along with the absurd 'BBC intonation' line and asked us to use our ( inauthentic) vent-holes. So, we had to record it all over again just for the sake of the 4th and 6th degrees of the scale.

Going back to that recent H. Niquet 'Water Music'/ 'Fireworks Music' prom with the 9 horns, my abiding feelings are these:

1) if a horn player/ trumpet player has not mastered the ( almost forgotten) technique of 'lipping into tune' those wayward pitches, the 'sharp F' ( 11th harmonic) and the 'sharp A' ( 14th harmonic) then he/ she should NOT be offering their deficient playing in the public arena.
I do know from personal experience that a great horn player who has made a supreme effort of study and practice can indeed 'lip' these notes into tune; several years ago I was privileged to be the 'assistant' player to ANDREW CLARK in a concert of the Bach Cantata 79 with the OAE.
Clark successfully 'lipped' the written F and A pitches 'into tune' without any hand technique or vent-holes.

2) M. Niquet and his players may well have undertaken an enormous amount of 'research' ( as offered by Bryn) but the aural evidence of that research, as displayed on their Prom, seems to indicate that they have misunderstood or maybe insufficiently explored the scope of the natural horn's harmonic series, in that they consistently used the horn's 13th harmonic as a 'written A' ( sounding pretty well as an A flat) rather than the clearer and brighter 14th harmonic ( sounding as a rather flat Bb, as used - of course much later - by Benjamin Britten in the 'Prologue' of his 'Serenade'

[Nick Armstrong]

Well, if it's not beneath either of our horn-blowers' dignity.....

Ah, so it was not the Portsmouth Sinfonia's Thames boat trip that was being referred to.

Bryn, have you ever performed this music?

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I'd set more store by your views if you didn't seem so desperate to belittle any who take a different view, however deep their expertise.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Great post, waldhorn

[Nick Armstrong]

Great post, waldhorn

Agreed !! And another:

I can only humbly repeat that

I'm very happy and indeed honoured to be bracketed with Waldhorn when it comes to an appreciation of historically-informed performance!