Prom 7 (18.7.12): Handel – Water Music and Music for the Royal Fireworks

[Flay]

Yes, I thought some sounded scrappy, but who am I to comment?

[Tony Halstead]

it would be interesting to have Waldhorn's opinion if he heard it

Thank you, Caliban.
I did indeed hear it, on the radio, not in the hall.
'Cacophonous' is far too mild a word, IMV.
As a brass player ( semi-retired) I too like some rasping and even some rough edges in the context of a risk-taking, live performance, e.g. a split or mis-pitched note here and there.
But what we heard from the trumpets and horns last night was little short of shambolic.
I'm guessing that the horns were played without a hand in the bell, in which case the only way of playing the 4th and 6th degrees of a diatonic scale 'in tune' is to 'bend' or 'lip' them into place. The 4th (number 11 in the harmonic series) is way too sharp and the 6th ( harmonic 13) too flat ( as we heard!).

That's the theory of it.... BUT there is only a handful of horn and trumpet players IN THE WORLD who can do this very difficult 'bending' technique to a level of 'audience acceptability'. And even then it's only possible at a moderate or quiet volume level. So, last night's players had no chance at all of playing these fearsome notes in tune when faced with a conductor who clearly wanted them to blast their heads off.
'Authentic'?
Maybe... there are so many issues raised here that I 'could get boring' ( hopefully assuming that I've not bored the reader already).
Number of players: as far as I know, Handel wanted 9 horns and 9 trumpets in his 'wind only' version of the Fireworks Music. For the strings and wind version my feeling is that 3 horns and 3 trumpets are adequate, and this would help ( slightly) with the intonation of the 'bent' notes.
In the Water Music, only 2 horns and 2 trumpets rather than a bloodcurdling mass would have been both tonally and intonationally preferable.
One more technical observation: I'm not sure why the brass players consistently 'aimed' at harmonic 13 rather than 14 for their 6th degree of the scale (written high A). Of course, harmonic 14 is too sharp but contextually would have sounded more acceptable as a 'wide' major 6th than harmonic 13, which almost sounds like a minor 6th.

I could go on and on - perhaps repeating a little story I told several years ago on the 'old' boards about a musical trip on a barge down the Thames in which I took part, wearing a Handelian wig....maybe it will come in at some point as a follow-up.

[AmpH]

Thank you, Caliban.
I did indeed hear it, on the radio, not in the hall.
'Cacophonous' is far too mild a word, IMV.
As a brass player ( semi-retired) I too like some rasping and even some rough edges in the context of a risk-taking, live performance, e.g. a split or mis-pitched note here and there.
But what we heard from the trumpets and horns last night was little short of shambolic.
I'm guessing that the horns were played without a hand in the bell, in which case the only way of playing the 4th and 6th degrees of a diatonic scale 'in tune' is to 'bend' or 'lip' them into place. The 4th (number 11 in the harmonic series) is way too sharp and the 6th ( harmonic 13) too flat ( as we heard!).

That's the theory of it.... BUT there is only a handful of horn and trumpet players IN THE WORLD who can do this very difficult 'bending' technique to a level of 'audience acceptability'. And even then it's only possible at a moderate or quiet volume level. So, last night's players had no chance at all of playing these fearsome notes in tune when faced with a conductor who clearly wanted them to blast their heads off.
'Authentic'?
Maybe... there are so many issues raised here that I 'could get boring' ( hopefully assuming that I've not bored the reader already).
Number of players: as far as I know, Handel wanted 9 horns and 9 trumpets in his 'wind only' version of the Fireworks Music. For the strings and wind version my feeling is that 3 horns and 3 trumpets are adequate, and this would help ( slightly) with the intonation of the 'bent' notes.
In the Water Music, only 2 horns and 2 trumpets rather than a bloodcurdling mass would have been both tonally and intonationally preferable.
One more technical observation: I'm not sure why the brass players consistently 'aimed' at harmonic 13 rather than 14 for their 6th degree of the scale (written high A). Of course, harmonic 14 is too sharp but contextually would have sounded more acceptable as a 'wide' major 6th than harmonic 13, which almost sounds like a minor 6th.

I could go on and on - perhaps repeating a little story I told several years ago on the 'old' boards about a musical trip on a barge down the Thames in which I took part, wearing a Handelian wig....maybe it will come in at some point as a follow-up.

The attached YouTube clip of a performance of the Handel ' Fireworks ' music by Le Con Spirituel may provide some clues regarding the instrumentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSCqrEqb9HQ

[Ferretfancy]

Ff, I'm surprised at you. The Season Ticket holders are NOT admitted first. I hope you meant "numbered ticket holders are admitted first, in ticket number order".
There's also the slight wrinkle that Gallery Season Ticket (and Weekend Pass) holders are permitted to remain in the Gallery between concerts, but this does not apply to the Arena.

PhilipT
It's hardly worth quibbling, but as it happened those of us who had our numbered stubs from the first concert did go in first by a short head. All the Promenade was free, so it didn't matter much and the Arena was not full.

David-G

I'm sorry you couldn't make it. There were TV cameras, so we can catch it again later.

[Ferretfancy]

I'm not well informed about period practice, but it was one of those Proms occasions that really took off, and I'm glad I stayed after the earlier concert. The antiphonal effect in the hall was terrific with 9 horns on the stage left, and 9 trumpets on the right, with the massed ranks of 10 bassoons behind the 19 oboes. Terrific stuff! Herve Niquet is tall and rather mephistophelian in appearance, and wore an ox blood coloured long jacket with a turned up collar. There was no rostrum, just a space for his flamboyant manner to look good in!

Very different to Hamilton-Harty!

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, I thought some sounded scrappy, but who am I to comment?

Merely a discerning and intelligent music-lover!

Like me, you may be comforted by the expert opinion of Waldhorn, confirming our views as rank amateurs (no offence, Ammy )

I guess the motto of this concert was: you had to be there.

[Nick Armstrong]

I could go on and on - perhaps repeating a little story I told several years ago on the 'old' boards about a musical trip on a barge down the Thames in which I took part, wearing a Handelian wig....maybe it will come in at some point as a follow-up.

Ain't no maybe about it: it definitely should!! (any photos? )

Thanks for that detailed response, not boring at all! As mentioned above, rather comforting in terms of my perception. (At one point, too, the woodwind section sounded as if it had actually fallen into the Water - there was an odd burbling distortion... and no, it wasn't the DAB signal)

'Cacophonous' is far too mild a word, IMV.

I'm glad I didn't overstate it!

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

I guess the motto of this concert was: you had to be there.

Well, I was there and enjoyed every minute if it. Mind you, I've known (and loved) the Niquet/ Glossa recording for some time now, so had reasonably accurate expectations. I wonder if Bryn was there? I'm sure he was planning to be.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=10314

[David-G]

Waldhorn, your contribution is not boring at all, most interesting in fact. I would not really disagree with the description "cacophonous"; but despite this, I would agree with Ferret's comment - "terrific stuff". Having heard the concert on the radio, I was interested in Ferret's description of the layout of the forces. Despite the seemingly very clear stereo image (as I mentioned above), I found it hard to grasp the orchestral placing. The left-right antiphonal effect was very clear, however there also seemed to be some instruments which were prominent and seemed close, while others seemed much further away. I do not know if this "near-far" contrast reflected what was heard in the hall, or if it was simply a result of the microphone arrangement.

[mercia]

delightful sounds (I thought) from the flutes in the G major Water Music Suite
no flute players seem to be acknowledged in the programme notes, would someone have been doubling up?

[Nick Armstrong]

delightful sounds (I thought) from the flutes in the G major Water Music Suite
no flute players seem to be acknowledged in the programme notes, would someone have been doubling up?

Sure it wasn't someone listening outside your window and whistling along?

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

delightful sounds (I thought) from the flutes in the G major Water Music Suite
no flute players seem to be acknowledged in the programme notes, would someone have been doubling up?

Yes, some of the oboists and two bassoonists swapped over to treble (and later descant) recorder for those two movements.

[mercia]

Yes, some of the oboists and two bassoonists swapped over to treble (and later descant) recorder for those two movements.

ah thanks
recorders, yes I had a feeling I was wrong with flutes
looking forward to seeing this concert - it sounds as if it was as much fun to watch as to listen to

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Swapping from oboes/bassoons to recorders does not present embouchure adjustment problems. However, when baroque/classical musicians were expected to switch from oboes to flutes, that must have been quiate a different matter. I've tried it myself in concerts (to save the promoters some money) and I find playing the flute, following a spell on the oboe, to be quite horrendous. Does anyone else have a similar experience?

[Bryn]

Well, I was there and enjoyed every minute if it. Mind you, I've known (and loved) the Niquet/ Glossa recording for some time now, so had reasonably accurate expectations. I wonder if Bryn was there? I'm sure he was planning to be.

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_co...w.php?id=10314

I was indeed, just one step behind the rail, a little to the right of centre (facing the platform). It was everything I expected and, contrary to the tired comments of modern valved and hand in bell horn players, I recognised what fine natural, intentionally un-'corrected' tuning was in play. There's none so deaf a will not hear, (or read the online programme notes) what? As for those shoes! What a card that Niquet is.

Oh, my one minor disappointment was that there were but 18 oboes, not the 26 Handel was after. From my position in the Arena, the strings somewhat drowned the double reeds.