Prom 1 (13.7.12): First Night of the Proms

[Tony Halstead]

I really don't get it at al

I know what you mean... I think I do indeed 'get it' for about the first 10 minutes and then there is a big climactic moment where the trombones intone the 'big tune' in a blistering sort of way, and you think 'it's nearly over, the coda is about to begin'
BUT then there is a very tedious recapitulation and the rest of the piece outstays its welcome...!

The very slow Silvestri / BSO BBC legends recording ( maybe the slowest ever) was occasioned by Silvestri's mistrust of the BSO's horn section, of which I was briefly a member in the 1960s.

There is a tricky passage of semiquavers for the entire horn section, which Silvestri kept on rehearsing, repeating it again and again at slower and slower speeds, until we horn players finally 'got it right'.
Following a sort of perverse, twisted 'logic' Silvestri's tempo for the whole performance was dictated by his 'pandering to the needs of the horn players'.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There seems to be rather a lot of low-level Elgar-bashing on this thread.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

There seems to be rather a lot of low-level Elgar-bashing on this thread.

And other bashing that in one case seems to be all about insulting anybody who was on stage and who isn't Mr Finley. What was that all about?

[Karafan]

But yes, if you want a recording, Barbirolli would be hard to match, let alone surpass.

Agreed, Jayne. JB is peerless there!

[Serial_Apologist]

There seems to be rather a lot of low-level Elgar-bashing on this thread.

A bit too below the cummerbund, EA?

[JFLL]

There seems to be rather a lot of low-level Elgar-bashing on this thread.

Yes, I suspect that Cockaigne, in its evocation of Edwardian London in all its vulgarity, is just too much for some fastidious souls here. Oh well, they can always listen to Britten and Tippett.

[Pabmusic]

There seems to be rather a lot of low-level Elgar-bashing on this thread.

Unavoidable, given the presumed age-range of boarders (I hope I'm not wildly out - it could be that most people are in their 20s and 30s, in which case I apologise in advance). Elgar's reputation was at its lowest in the 1950s and 1960s, with open hostility displayed by many teachers (I can vouch for this), academics and critics - it's surprising just how much personalised opprobrium Elgar attracted in some quarters. People whose musical roots lie in those decades are unlikely not to have been affected, either way, by such attitudes. In my case, it encouraged me to explore Elgar further (I often sided with underdogs). No doubt others were different. The good thing is that there's much less of this attitude among those who have studied in the last 30 years, and Elgar's music is usually discussed in the mainstream of musical criticism.

As for Cockaigne, here's George Bernard Shaw's view: "If you say that Elgar’s Cockaigne overture combines every classic quality of a concert overture with every lyrical and dramatic quality of the overture to Die Meistersinger, you are either uttering a platitude as safe as a complaint to Handel on the majesty of the Hallelujah Chorus, or else damning yourself to all critical posterity by uttering a gaffe that will make your grandson blush for you. Personally, I am prepared to take the risk. What do I care for my grandson? Give me Cockaigne."

Incidentally, the similarity of this overture’s title to the name of a certain drug was not lost on Elgar’s audiences. One friend suggested that if the overture should turn out to have an anaesthetic effect on its listeners, Elgar should rename it Chloroform. Elgar replied: "Ether will do."

[jayne lee wilson]

A lovely post Pabmusic - reminding us all that artists - whether Edwardian Romantics or Elizabethan Serialists - are not cardboard cut-outs, too easily assignable to their temporal stereotypes.

It will - or should - be remembered that our old firebrand Ken Russell made a beautiful, faithful, evocative film on Elgar, and an even better one about Delius - he could see the strange and visionary truth of their creations, the stark originality, beneath any transitory relation to the the cultural mores of their time.

"Give me Cockaigne" - sparkling, sensuous, romantic and fun -
And give me Sea Drift - a stark, poignant, wistful and challenging vision of love and loss.

[Barbirollians]

I don't think there is much Elgar bashing - I love Elgar's music but the Coronation Ode is one of his weakest pieces and like The Kingdom I can do without it .

[Pabmusic]

...our old firebrand Ken Russell made a beautiful, faithful, evocative film on Elgar, and an even better one about Delius - he could see the strange and visionary truth of their creations, the stark originality, beneath any transitory relation to the the cultural mores of their time...

And Ken Russell can take a lot of the credit for the rehabilitation of Elgar - his film from 1962 was highly regarded. Then came Michael Kennedy's Portrait of Elgar (1969?) and Solti's recording of the First Symphony in 1972. Those were perhaps the three most significant events. Though of course we mustn't forget Boult, Barbirolli and Sargent, who kept Elgar's banner aloft during the 50s and 60s.

As for Sea Drift, I entirely agree with you. A masterpiece.

[Hornspieler]

( Sorree! I always mistype remember for some reason! )

So do I. Apparently, it's a very common mistake. (I don't always remeber to type in the second "m")

Good morning all!

HS

[salymap]

I know what you mean... I think I do indeed 'get it' for about the first 10 minutes and then there is a big climactic moment where the trombones intone the 'big t une' in a blistering sort of way, and you think 'it's nearly over, the coda is about to begin'
BUT then there is a very tedious recapitulation and the rest of the piece outstays its welcome...!

The very slow Silvestri / BSO BBC legends recording ( maybe the slowest ever) was occasioned by Silvestri's mistrust of the BSO's horn section, of which I was briefly a member in the 1960s.

There is a tricky passage of semiquavers for the entire horn section, which Silvestri kept on rehearsing, repeating it again and again at slower and slower speeds, until we horn players finally 'got it right'.
Following a sort of perverse, twisted 'logic' Silvestri's tempo for the whole performance was dictated by his 'pandering to the needs of the horn players'.

Good morning waldhorn, that's very interesting. And I thought the BSO loved Silvestri, being the best thing since sliced bread.

[Hornspieler]

I know what you mean... I think I do indeed 'get it' for about the first 10 minutes and then there is a big climactic moment where the trombones intone the 'big tune' in a blistering sort of way, and you think 'it's nearly over, the coda is about to begin'
BUT then there is a very tedious recapitulation and the rest of the piece outstays its welcome...!

The very slow Silvestri / BSO BBC legends recording ( maybe the slowest ever) was occasioned by Silvestri's mistrust of the BSO's horn section, of which I was briefly a member in the 1960s.

There is a tricky passage of semiquavers for the entire horn section, which Silvestri kept on rehearsing, repeating it again and again at slower and slower speeds, until we horn players finally 'got it right'.
Following a sort of perverse, twisted 'logic' Silvestri's tempo for the whole performance was dictated by his 'pandering to the needs of the horn players'.

Good morning Waldhorn!

Well, I believe that recording was made after I had left the BSO, but Elgar was certainly not afraid of writing near impossible passages for the horns (and all four in unison!)

I seem to remember that one of the Pomp and Circumstance marches (I think it was Nº 5) has a similar near-unplayable passage towards the end.

No doubt Waldhorn will be able to supply a date for that recording. (I left the BSO in July 1966, so I think I can plead "Not Guilty, m'lud" but
there, but for the grace of God, etc.

Hornspieler

[salymap]

Good morning Waldhorn!

Well, I believe that recording was made after I had left the BSO, but Elgar was certainly not afraid of writing near impossible passages for the horns (and all four in unison!)




I seem to remember that one of the Pomp and Circumstance marches (I think it was Nº 5) has a similar near-unplayable passage towards the end.

No doubt Waldhorn will be able to supply a date for that recording. (I left the BSO in July 1966, so I think I can plead "Not Guilty, m'lud" but
there, but for the grace of God, etc.

Hornspieler

Nice one, HS

[Nick Armstrong]

I left the BSO in July 1966, so I think I can plead "Not Guilty, m'lud" but
there, but for the grace of God, etc.

Hornspieler

Recall Mr Waldhorn to the witness box!!

The Court will rise in the meantime and consider its verdict.

(Maybe you were there in spirit, HS? Did your influence linger on? )