Prom 75 (7.9.12): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra – London & Alpine Symphonies

[Roehre]

I fail to understand this view. Are you saying that it would have been better if these performances had not happened? Better that this music was not played? Better that nobody had a chance to listen to and perhaps enjoy them?

Is it that difficult to actually read exactly what I write?

For the best part of the rest it was as usual and for me completely and utterly superfluous: re-chewing war horses

I simply don't recall to have written that these works shouldn't be played or enjoyed or be listened to. I only wrote that for me the best part of the Proms was "completely and utterly superfluous".

There is after all no obligation for you to listen to performances that you feel to be superfluous.

If you look what I am/have been actually listening to daily, you will/might have discover/ed that that is exactly what I did/am doing. For some reason I do think that I cannot be accused of a narrow taste or a lack of interest in music in all its forms.

[amateur51]

Well said, euthynicus, and I think personally that you are right to say this. Keep it up!

One of the problems with this forum is that some members do get quite shirty when any criticism is made of one of their pet ensembles/soloist etc., etc. (See the thread about Stanislaw Skrowaczewski, where I had the cheek to say I found him rather dry when I attended a Prom some years ago).

I'm normally a bit of a fan of both the VPO and Bernard Haitink, but even in situations where I've been part of a performace myself which has been poor, I've been known to be critical. Constructive criticism of course - I hope.

Some would think my criticism of Nicola Beneddetti's Bruch concerto during the LNoftheP's over the top, but I believe (and my opinion was asked by one poster) that the problems I see and hear technically and ultimately musically, are valid. If it was a pianist for example, I would probably only make musical criticisms (unless the technical deficincies were blatently obvious), as I'm not a pianist.

This forum needs people who can make valid points and critical judgements. Of course we must expect that some people will accuse us of doing a hatchet job, or words to that end.

I for one greatly appreciate your technical and musical criticisms of string players because this is your area of expertise and experience Ariosto, something which I do not have nor the talent to have

What I comment on negatively is your rather heavy-handed comments about conductors which come across to me as rather gimmicky macho (you do have a macho style y'know )'all the boys together' barrack room stuff. I assume you've never stood at the helm of an orchestra at a public performance before a paying audience. If my assumption is wrong, I apologise in advance

And of course you have the right to express your views - but you should expect others to comments on them just as vigorously

[amac4165]

Some would think my criticism of Nicola Beneddetti's Bruch concerto during the LNoftheP's over the top, .

True - but it was an overplayed piece in a overblown concert ! Not entirely sure why a musical criticism would be worth the effort - over the top or not

There was a TV "news" item I caught last night very late - which followed NB around - as much effort went into the LN dress as anything else !

Little or no point in reviewing the Last Night as it is largely a television entertainment.

amac

[Ariosto]

I for one greatly appreciate your technical and musical criticisms of string players because this is your area of expertise and experience Ariosto, something which I do not have nor the talent to have

What I comment on negatively is your rather heavy-handed comments about conductors which come across to me as rather gimmicky macho (you do have a macho style y'know )'all the boys together' barrack room stuff. I assume you've never stood at the helm of an orchestra at a public performance before a paying audience. If my assumption is wrong, I apologise in advance

Well, I haven't conducted in front of a paying or baying audience - and I wouldn't want to. I could quote the great Russian pianist who did on one occasion (Richter) and said that he would never do it again as you had to become a tyrant and an egotist and throw music out of the window. Also Nige the fiddler who has had some choice things to say about conductors. I have conducted small groups and youth orchestras and choirs, but it's something I won't consider doing again. It's second hand music making. (Apart from those few greats who it is great to work with).

And of course you have the right to express your views - but you should expect others to comments on them just as vigorously

I'm always up for that and I'm just getting the axe sharpened as I write.

PS Have YOU sat in front of the average conductor and carried them through a difficult concert? If you have, then I bow to your experience and knowledge, but if not, maybe you should be more circumspect in your opinions.

[amateur51]

Well, I haven't conducted in front of a paying or baying audience - and I wouldn't want to. I could quote the great Russian pianist who did on one occasion (Richter) and said that he would never do it again as you had to become a tyrant and an egotist and throw music out of the window. Also Nige the fiddler who has had some choice things to say about conductors. I have conducted small groups and youth orchestras and choirs, but it's something I won't consider doing again. It's second hand music making. (Apart from those few greats who it is great to work with).

I'm always up for that and I'm just getting the axe sharpened as I write.

PS Have YOU sat in front of the average conductor and carried them through a difficult concert? If you have, then I bow to your experience and knowledge, but if not, maybe you should be more circumspect in your opinions.

touché

But seriously I confine myself to those areas of experience and expertise that I have - as a paying punter who has sat through many concerts for over 40 years. I tend to comment on whether or not I've enjoyed the performance and why, and I have not, as yet, called for anyone to consider retirement, as you have recently.

It could be that on a bottle of Scotch a day, any such call in your case would be superfluous

[Richard Tarleton]

I too greatly value the expert criticism from the likes of ariosto, euthynicus and our resident horn section , please keep it up. You get lots of different perspectives on these boards, it's all grist to the critical mill and I too think the ad hominem comments are out of place.

I thought the Matthew Stadlen feature on Nicola Benedetti was rather charming - it's a simple format with an interesting range of guests. I defer to ariosto's observations on her playing, but every time I hear her speak she comes across as a sincere, genuine and dedicated young woman - she did one of those Howard Goodall spots on Sky Arts 2 not long ago which gets repeated every so often. We don't know how long the dress fitting took, and I don't suppose she took any longer over it than any other female artiste - in fact she comes across as not a bit vain. This comment

as much effort went into the LN dress as anything else

is entirely out of place - the programme did not take place in real time, it was edited, and the dress shop bit took only a few minutes. The whole point of these Matthew Stadlen programmes is to give a feel for the person's life, and getting yourself presentable to appear on stage is clearly part of it.

[David-G]

Is it that difficult to actually read exactly what I write?

I simply don't recall to have written that these works shouldn't be played or enjoyed or be listened to. I only wrote that for me the best part of the Proms was "completely and utterly superfluous".

If you look what I am/have been actually listening to daily, you will/might have discover/ed that that is exactly what I did/am doing. For some reason I do think that I cannot be accused of a narrow taste or a lack of interest in music in all its forms.

Since there is no necessity to listen to concerts that are "completely and utterly superfluous", my conclusion from your judgment "Thank goodness, it's over" was that you would have preferred that the concerts never took place. If this is wrong I apologise, but I feel that it was a natural conclusion to draw.

[Nick Armstrong]

touché

I love it when mates knock chunks out of each other!

It could be that on a bottle of Scotch a day, any such call in your case would be superfluous

Ouch! Didn't see that one coming!

(I've got some spare milk if anyone wants a saucerful )

[Ariosto]

touché

But seriously I confine myself to those areas of experience and expertise that I have - as a paying punter who has sat through many concerts for over 40 years. I tend to comment on whether or not I've enjoyed the performance and why, and I have not, as yet, called for anyone to consider retirement, as you have recently.

It could be that on a bottle of Scotch a day, any such call in your case would be superfluous

Valid points, and I'm thinking of two bottles a day soon as I've had one already and it's only 2.00 pm!

Conductors often go on far too long - why? Because its much easier to stand or even sit there and give a few down beats and the odd cue. One does not find instrumentalists generally (OK, one or two pianists) playing much after 70-75. The odd ones that do are trading on the past and sound awful and are nearly always past it (i.e Menuhin). Grappelli was an ecxeption, and so was Rubinstein, but not many.

So yes, there SHOULD be an age limit for conductors (apart from the odd exception) and this should possibly be 79 - in my opinion.

But as a punter you should have opinions, based on what you have heard. But let us orchestral navvies have opinions too - and even about conductors - whom we mostly put up with but rarely love or admire!!

[Roehre]

Since there is no necessity to listen to concerts that are "completely and utterly superfluous", my conclusion from your judgment "Thank goodness, it's over" was that you would have preferred that the concerts never took place. If this is wrong I apologise, but I feel that it was a natural conclusion to draw.

I see your point now. But whatever: apologies accepted

[amateur51]

I love it when mates knock chunks out of each other!



Ouch! Didn't see that one coming!

(I've got some spare milk if anyone wants a saucerful )

**brandishes celery in Caliban's face**

[Nick Armstrong]

**brandishes celery in Caliban's face**

You.... you.... you....



(Woody Allen: "Don't you call me a 'you-you'...!")

[Ariosto]

I thought the Matthew Stadlen feature on Nicola Benedetti was rather charming - it's a simple format with an interesting range of guests. I defer to ariosto's observations on her playing, but every time I hear her speak she comes across as a sincere, genuine and dedicated young woman - she did one of those Howard Goodall spots on Sky Arts 2 not long ago which gets repeated every so often.

I too saw that programme on SK2 and I thought her playing had some very good moments. I'm sure she is a delightful person, and without too much ego as well.

I just wish she could get a few things sorted out - take a year off - get some good advice, and sort out the problems. She may have a future more in chamber music than solo concertos and recitals. It's no great shame to play well in chamber music, which she is capeable of, but forget at least for the time being with competing with Hilary Hahn, James Ehnes, Shai Gilham and one or two of the other outstanding virtuosi that we hear regularly in concertos and recitals. There's probably 7 or 8 top players out there who are all under 45'ish and with whom no one esle can hold a candle. As well as this there are probably several young student graduates who are top class too. I heard one at the RAM last year in a masterclass and she was at another level - why wasn't she doing a Prom concerto? (Don't ask me her name, I would have to look it up, but she had everything - technique, temperament, modesty - and was charming to boot. I think she was Armenian).

[Nick Armstrong]

I too saw that programme on SK2 and I thought her playing had some very good moments. I'm sure she is a delightful person, and without too much ego as well.

I recorded the recent Korngold concerto recording, when played on CD Review the other week - I've listened with half an ear a couple of times, must listen properly.... But it sounded pretty good to me. Mind you, it can be schmaltzed up and no harm, I suppose...

[amateur51]

I too saw that programme on SK2 and I thought her playing had some very good moments. I'm sure she is a delightful person, and without too much ego as well.

I just wish she could get a few things sorted out - take a year off - get some good advice, and sort out the problems. She may have a future more in chamber music than solo concertos and recitals. It's no great shame to play well in chamber music, which she is capeable of, but forget at least for the time being with competing with Hilary Hahn, James Ehnes, Shai Gilham and one or two of the other outstanding virtuosi that we hear regularly in concertos and recitals. There's probably 7 or 8 top players out there who are all under 45'ish and with whom no one esle can hold a candle. As well as this there are probably several young student graduates who are top class too. I heard one at the RAM last year in a masterclass and she was at another level - why wasn't she doing a Prom concerto? (Don't ask me her name, I would have to look it up, but she had everything - technique, temperament, modesty - and was charming to boot. I think she was Armenian).

Never heard of him/her - is it Gil Shaham (violinist) or Shai Wosner (pianist) ?