Prom 75 (7.9.12): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra – London & Alpine Symphonies

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Isn't symphonism a matter of harmonic analysis that exactly doesn't permit such a programmatic explication as this?

Well, certainly for most composers before the late 19th Century (and possibly for Strauss himself, who IIRC preferred to call such programatic works as Also Sprach etc, "Tone Poems"?). Post Wagner, many composers (and their listeners - Thomas Mann and E M Forster, for two very different examples of reactions to Beethoven) mistrusted the idea of "pure"/"abstract" Music and preferred to regard Music as an aural representation of a philosophical/autobiographical argument.

RVW's annoyance that programmatic details were being taken for granted in his Fourth and Sixth Symphonies ("Why can't anyone believe that that someone might just wish to write a Symphony in E minor?!" - this from memory; I can't find the accurate quotation) would also suggest that he'd agree with you, as would Sibelius. But not Mahler, with his "The Symphony should be the world; it should contain everything!" And is it really not "permissible" to "hear" religious allegories in the harmonic/tonal shifts and turns in the Symphonies of Bruckner?

Perhaps it could be said that some people (composers, performers, listeners) prefer to hear extra-musical events going on when they hear a Symphony (and believe that these enhance the Music), whilst others get more excited by the Music in and of itself, and feel that such extra-musical considerations trivialize the Music. Personally, I prefer Berlioz' First Symphony in C major without the sub-Hammer Horror film "plot" he gave it along with the title Symphonie Fantastique. But it works, supremely well, with and/or without the "story".

[kernelbogey]

... And is it really not "permissible" to "hear" religious allegories in the harmonic/tonal shifts and turns in the Symphonies of Bruckner?

As one whose musical education is rather primitive and who also has loved Bruckner's music for fifty years I of course experience the 'harmonic/tonal shifts and turns' without being able to name or describe them in theoretical musical language. With Bruckner, I find images of nature, mountains particularly, and gothic architecture hover in my perceptions of the music, together with concepts like grandeur, awe, mysticism.

Perhaps it could be said that some people (composers, performers, listeners) prefer to hear extra-musical events going on when they hear a Symphony (and believe that these enhance the Music), whilst others get more excited by the Music in and of itself, and feel that such extra-musical considerations trivialize the Music. Personally, I prefer Berlioz' First Symphony in C major without the sub-Hammer Horror film "plot" he gave it along with the title Symphonie Fantastique. But it works, supremely well, with and/or without the "story".

I modestly suggest that individuals' psychological differences will prompt differing responses to music, based in part on their preferences for cognitive or emotional constructions of their environments. Perhaps education in the cognitive, that is theoretical, aspects of music might predispose one to recognising and appreciating the formal aspects of music over any programmatic references.

If there has been a prior indication of a programme by the composer (or perhaps by others) it may be difficult for me to set this aside when listening. I would find it hard to do so in the case of 'Till Eulenspiegel' but generally don't think of the programme when listening to Beethoven 6. And I find the label 'Moonlight' for Beethoven's sonata irrelevant.

[Tony Halstead]

And I find the label 'Moonlight' for Chopin's sonata irrelevant.

Did Chopin borrow that name from Beethoven, I wonder?

[kernelbogey]

Did Chopin borrow that name from Beethoven, I wonder?

Thank you.

[Osborn]

Did Chopin borrow that name from Beethoven, I wonder?

No. Frankie Vaughan...

[french frank]

Thank you.

We all do it - I was reminded that the Dolly Suite/Berceuse was by Fauré last week, not Debussy (fortunately, the online editor kindly altered it for me, but not before It Had Been Noted). My excuse was that Listen With Mother finished 30 years ago

Anyway, back to the Prom - even Ossie is going off topic

[cloughie]

Did Chopin borrow that name from Beethoven, I wonder?

'Moonlght, moonlight, jolly fine moonlight, moonlight, moonlight, all night long'!!!!!

[kernelbogey]

Anyway, back to the Prom - even Ossie is going off topic

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When referring to the score of Eine Alpensinfonie, it is apparent that some of the 22 section names are in the "wrong place", but most CD tracks (or "songs" as our American friends say) follow these indication to the millisecond, and it makes no musical sense. The worst examples are the Waterfall merging into the Apparition (they are clearly the same section) and the start of the Thunderstorm, which is (again clearly) much earlier than it says in the score.

Now I know what response I'm going to get for saying this...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Now I know what response I'm going to get for saying this...

Weeell ...

.... as I don't have a score of the work*, I couldn't possibly comment.

Maybe Ricky was following Debussy's example in his Preludes ... leaving out the titles until the end of the piece?


* = there's a Dover edition coupling the Alpine with the Domestic with which Amazon keeps tempting me: and it is a temptation!

[Flay]

Weeell ...

.... as I don't have a score of the work*, I couldn't possibly comment.

http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/8/8a/IMSLP20542-PMLP12189-Strauss_-_Eine_Alpensinfonie__Op._64__orch._score_.pdf

Now you do!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[Alison]

Belated thanks to Ferney for so immaculately answering my Zarathustra request.