Prom 75 (7.9.12): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra – London & Alpine Symphonies

[Roehre]

..... And this is what he wrote in his diary: 'The Jew Mahler could still be uplifted by Christianity. The hero Richard Wagner descended to it again as an old man, under the influence of Schopenhauer. It is absolutely clear to me that the German nation will only find new strength through liberation from Christianity... I will call my Alpine Symphony the Antichrist, because in it there is moral purification by means of one's strength, liberation through work, worship of glorious, eternal nature.'....

May I have the page number of this quote from the obviously English version of Wilhelm?
(As there are some disturbing differences between the original and around a third more extensive original German version [Richard Strauss Persönlich. Eine Bildbiographie] and the abridged English one [Richard Strauss. An intimate portrait])

[euthynicus]

May I have the page number of this quote from the obviously English version of Wilhelm?
(As there are some disturbing differences between the original and around a third more extensive original German version [Richard Strauss Persönlich. Eine Bildbiographie] and the abridged English one [Richard Strauss. An intimate portrait])

Yes, when I get home in 12 hours time or so. Though Raymond Holden in his Strauss book uses the same translation, and he's quite likely to have consulted the original source.

[David-G]

Is there anywhere in Strauss, the cry of a bird or wild beast?

Possibly not quite what you had in mind ... but there is of course the falcon in "Die Frau ohne Schatten".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

An extraordinary, if disturbing, quote which I never knew...

Is it a hymn to nature, or rather a hymn to a man standing at the centre of his own picture of it?

- the two are not mutually exclusive, of course. Pet's "more than a day's mountaineering" (with which I agree completely) perhaps misses the possibility that the "day's mountaineering" is itself a metaphor for human exertion: that fulfilment/reward can only be glimpsed when one has given one's all - in fact, when one is gasping from the effort. And, yes, one has to be very careful that such self-imposed ideas are not exploited by those who have no regard for human fulfilment:

(As for "liberation through work" - our present government seem to share that sinister credo...)

Could one say that - Mahler is to Strauss as Bruckner is to Wagner?

Of course one could - but I'm not sure what the point would be!

[Roehre]

....And this is what he wrote in his diary: 'The Jew Mahler could still be uplifted by Christianity. The hero Richard Wagner descended to it again as an old man, under the influence of Schopenhauer. It is absolutely clear to me that the German nation will only find new strength through liberation from Christianity... I will call my Alpine Symphony the Antichrist, because in it there is moral purification by means of one's strength, liberation through work, worship of glorious, eternal nature.'

...., 'There is no symbolic symphonism in the Alpine Symphony, by contrast with Zarathustra. It is a work of pure, undisguised homage to the eternal, glorious nature of the composer's homeland.'.....

This is that passage as given in the German original (p.128-129, translated again, but with an interesting omission restored and a more strict translation):

As Mahler died in 1911, -so told Strauss' son Franz- Strauss was unable to work for days, hardly spoke, and he wrote in his diary: 'The Jewish Mahler could still be uplifted by Christianity. The hero Richard Wagner descended to it again as an old man, under the influence of Schopenhauer. It is absolutely clear to me that the German nation will only find new strength through liberation from Christianity Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Karl V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? I will call my Alpine Symphony the Antichrist, as there is moral purification by means of one's own strength, liberation through work, worship of glorious, eternal nature.'

...., 'There is no symphonic symbolism in the Alpine Symphony, by contrast with Zarathustra. It is a work of pure, undisguised homage to the eternal, glorious nature of were he was born .'..

This was written in 1911, before the Great War.
Germany existed for just over 40 years by then. Then the distant memories of the First Reich (das Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher nation c.900-1806) before the wars of confession and the very traumatic Thirty Years War (1618-1648) were still present within the German psyche. Hence Strauss' remark, left out in the English edition "Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Charles V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? ", which is essential to assess Strauss' state of his mind at that moment: Christianity is to blame. Calling Mahler jewish is not a derogatory remark, it's just a fact for Strauss.

The translator should take note that there is a difference between "heimische Natur" (i.e. the nature from the area were one is born and grows up), and "Natur der Heimat" (i.e. the nature of the Fatherland). To me it's clear that the Alpensinfonie is a recollection of the Alps which surround Strauss' villa in Garmisch, not some (alpine) nature in general somewhere else in Germany/Austria/Switzerland (as wide definition of "homeland".).

Thus: the Alpensinfonie is an image of a journey through a literally god-less nature, by chance influenced by Nietschian thinking, but that's it.
No more, no less.
----------------------------

Edit:
Checking the English version (p.106): that text does not leave out the passage ""Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Charles V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? ". (there translated as "Are we really once again as we were at the time of the political union of Charles V and the Pope?")

It is euthynicus who skipped that essential line.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Very telling details, Roehre: many thanks. (A world of difference between "no symbolic symphonism" and "no symphonic symbolism".)

[Barbirollians]

This is that passage as given in the German original (p.128-129, translated again, but with an interesting omission restored and a more strict translation):

As Mahler died in 1911, -so told Strauss' son Franz- Strauss was unable to work for days, hardly spoke, and he wrote in his diary: 'The Jewish Mahler could still be uplifted by Christianity. The hero Richard Wagner descended to it again as an old man, under the influence of Schopenhauer. It is absolutely clear to me that the German nation will only find new strength through liberation from Christianity Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Karl V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? I will call my Alpine Symphony the Antichrist, as there is moral purification by means of one's own strength, liberation through work, worship of glorious, eternal nature.'

...., 'There is no symphonic symbolism in the Alpine Symphony, by contrast with Zarathustra. It is a work of pure, undisguised homage to the eternal, glorious nature of were he was born .'..

This was written in 1911, before the Great War.
Germany existed for just over 40 years by then. Then the distant memories of the First Reich (das Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher nation c.900-1806) before the wars of confession and the very traumatic Thirty Years War (1618-1648) were still present within the German psyche. Hence Strauss' remark, left out in the English edition "Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Charles V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? ", which is essential to assess Strauss' state of his mind at that moment: Christianity is to blame. Calling Mahler jewish is not a derogatory remark, it's just a fact for Strauss.

The translator should take note that there is a difference between "heimische Natur" (i.e. the nature from the area were one is born and grows up), and "Natur der Heimat" (i.e. the nature of the Fatherland). To me it's clear that the Alpensinfonie is a recollection of the Alps which surround Strauss' villa in Garmisch, not some (alpine) nature in general somewhere else in Germany/Austria/Switzerland (as wide definition of "homeland".).

Thus: the Alpensinfonie is an image of a journey through a literally god-less nature, by chance influenced by Nietschian thinking, but that's it.
No more, no less.
----------------------------

Edit:
Checking the English version (p.106): that text does not leave out the passage ""Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Charles V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? ". (there translated as "Are we really once again as we were at the time of the political union of Charles V and the Pope?")

It is euthynicus who skipped that essential line.

Very illuminating thanks Roehre.

[euthynicus]

Checking the English version (p.106): that text does not leave out the passage ""Have we really made progress compared with the era of political unity of Charles V and the Pope? Wilhelm II and Pius X? ". (there translated as "Are we really once again as we were at the time of the political union of Charles V and the Pope?")

It is euthynicus who skipped that essential line.

I did, and included an ellipsis to indicate so. Late last night it seemed less essential than you have made it, for which thanks. As for the tussle between 'symbolic symphonism' and 'symphonic symbolism', that goes to the nub of the matter, no?

[Roehre]

I did, and included an ellipsis to indicate so. Late last night it seemed less essential than you have made it, for which thanks. As for the tussle between 'symbolic symphonism' and 'symphonic symbolism', that goes to the nub of the matter, no?

I am afraid it does. It was this which did ring a bell at first, before I realised something was read in these lines which I didn't recall ever to have read myself, therefore my asking for the page of that quote.
In my experience one always has got to be careful using translations if the original is available too.

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes there is, late on through the forest, before wandering by the brook - section 27 on the score - bird call is clearly heard on the E-flat clarinet then the flute.

Thanks Flay - I think I picked them out in that murky forest... very en passant passerines aren't they? And, like the 2 Last Larks (cheers Cal.) "human, all too human"... there to console the soul of the passing godless sapiens.
Spotters' Badges anyway!

Thank whichever God for the Catalogue d'Oiseaux...

Shouldn't be here, supposed to be busy! Must fly...

[Alison]

What a good discussion now. Would anyone be brave enough to briefly summarise the symphonic symbolism of Zarathustra ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Would anyone be brave enough to briefly summarise the symphonic symbolism of Zarathustra ?

C open Fifth = Nature; C major/ minor = Man. Everything else is Man's striving to unite with and/or overcome Nature, beginning with the attempted compromise of Ab major (maintains the C and the Eb from the human c minor, raises the Natural Fifth (G) a semitone to Ab). The struggle reaches its apex in the chromatic saturation of the "Artifice" of the central Fugue (Culture rather than Nature) to the frenzied Cmajor Waltz, the fake ecstasy of which is highlighted by the pedal E of the midnight bell. This E falls again to Eb (enharmonically rewritten as D#) and the Music seems to settle into B major and a sense of self-discovery; but Nature's C open fifth has the last word.

[euthynicus]

I am afraid it does. It was this which did ring a bell at first, before I realised something was read in these lines which I didn't recall ever to have read myself, therefore my asking for the page of that quote.
In my experience one always has got to be careful using translations if the original is available too.

Why, 'afraid'? I don't think the new meaning is much less obscure than the old! And I maintain that the thrust of the entry propels us towards a thoroughly contextual reading of the piece, one that assigns little value to time-honoured (time-worn, Millington used in reviewing the Last Night) customs of symphonism, symbolic or otherwise.

[euthynicus]

C open Fifth = Nature; C major/ minor = Man. Everything else is Man's striving to unite with and/or overcome Nature, beginning with the attempted compromise of Ab major (maintains the C and the Eb from the human c minor, raises the Natural Fifth (G) a semitone to Ab). The struggle reaches its apex in the chromatic saturation of the "Artifice" of the central Fugue (Culture rather than Nature) to the frenzied Cmajor Waltz, the fake ecstasy of which is highlighted by the pedal E of the midnight bell. This E falls again to Eb (enharmonically rewritten as D#) and the Music seems to settle into B major and a sense of self-discovery; but Nature's C open fifth has the last word.

Thank you for this analysis that is as impressive for its brevity and clarity as its seeming rightness. But is this 'symphonic'? Can't we analyse, say, Les Preludes like this (I mean, of course, that I expect you could; I certainly couldn't)? Isn't symphonism a matter of harmonic analysis that exactly doesn't permit such a programmatic explication as this?

[euthynicus]

Then again, thinking only a little further to Brodbeck's work on Brahms 1 in that CUP handbook, in which he convincingly relates the progress of the first movement to Schumann's decline, to say nothing of the Third Symphony's more blatant homage to the Rhenish, even in the work of the most apparently, determinedly 'symphonic' composer, personal and abstract narratives need not occlude each other. But can that still be said of Domestica? I've heard performances by Ashkenazy and others that are as evidently symphonic as you like, but they seem to miss something important and dramatic that the rampant quicksilver showman Maazel captures with the VPO (naturally). I feel sure that Strauss and Brahms are not symphonic bedfellows, as if it weren't already well acknowledged. But stating just how and why is trickier.