Prom 75 (7.9.12): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra – London & Alpine Symphonies

[Alison]

Another thing I wanted to say is that these performances didn't have the feel of mechanical ones being trotted out many times over the span of a long haul tour. I have not researched the truth of my suspicions and don't feel the need.

I dare say student orchestras would be a lot more thorough in their preparation. Is this really so surprising ?

[Nick Armstrong]

Thank god the Proms are over.

Too negative, I think, Ari, Roehre and vindetable.

The RVW triple-decker, Howells's "Hymnus Paradisi" and the VPO Bruckner 9 were unforgettable. The last two of those gained greatly from being performed in the RAH, and I suspect that wouldn't happen but for the Proms.

[Barbirollians]

Some incredibly pompous "wood for the trees" criticism on this thread . The performances moved me whatever any technical deficiencies .

[Ariosto]

Some incredibly pompous "wood for the trees" criticism on this thread . The performances moved me whatever any technical deficiencies .

The problems were as much musical as technical and if you don't like other people's opinions then don't read them.

[amac4165]

Have to prevent you being a lone dissenting voice here, Ariosto. The playing on Friday was disgustingly lazy. Strong term, but not used lightly. If the Strauss sounded marginally more together, it was only because (again with uncharacteristic brutality) the brass decided discretion was the better part of valour and obliterated their colleagues. They looked sullen and miserable, and (who knows? I don't) that may have had something to do with Haitink's storming off at the end of the Haydn and refusing to acknowledge the applause. If leader Kuechl wasn't summoned to the manager's office at half time for the hairdryer treatment, he should have been, not that (if he was, and he looked incandescent) it made any difference, because he carried on playing a quarter beat ahead of the section, that is when they were playing together, which was rarely. They sounded a different band from the one that took Brahms and Schumann to the Barbican in June. And indeed they probably were, since the Vienna Philharmonic aka the Vienna State Opera have also been playing Don Carlo this week, in Vienna. Matters of interpretation were rendered insignificant, though the slow introduction to the Haydn promised a stoic gravity which would have made an interesting counterweight to the previous night's remarkable Bruckner 9, but then dissipated in a miasma of poor ensemble. Given that the Prom was being shown across Europe (not just by the BBC) it was a curious decision by this ever-cussedly individual collective not to turn up and show willing. In the Strauss they looked and sounded desperate to be doing it back at home with Thielemann.

Fiday night (the real last night) was indeed a bit odd - non appearance of BH after the Haydn clearly had the orchestra puzzled (and us too) I think we assumed he was called to TV interview - someone said later that his wife left at the same time so the TV interview seemed to be the best explanation.

To be honest the Haydn wasn't up to much - but I largely put that down to the hall which seems to suffocate the life out of Mozart and Haydn - but probably that was being charitable. The Alpine was not the perfect ascent one might have expected - although I think still better that the Dresden Stateskappelle a few years ago.

I also tend to think the B 9 was the highwater mark of the two concerts.

amac

[Roehre]

Too negative, I think, Ari, Roehre and vindetable.

The RVW triple-decker, Howells's "Hymnus Paradisi" and the VPO Bruckner 9 were unforgettable. The last two of those gained greatly from being performed in the RAH, and I suspect that wouldn't happen but for the Proms.

I enjoyed quite a couple of things: Maxwell Davies 9, alternative Mendelssohn (Chailly), I Fagiolini (Viadano, Monteverdi & especially G.Gabrieli), the Cage celebration, Kunst der Fuge and Goldberg-variations (in enjoyable instrumentations), Boulez, Gurrelieder, Musgrave's Postcard, Szell's Smetana, Norgard 7, Ligeti, Xenakis, Goehr, Knussen and a couple of the new works.

For the best part of the rest it was as usual and for me completely and utterly superfluous: re-chewing war horses (Beethoven, Brahms, RVW, Mahler, Strauss, Dvorak. Elgar, Delius. Some of them great performances, but still: war horses). I don't think it is a too negative judgement to say "Thank goodness, it's over".

[antongould]

I enjoyed a couple of things: Maxwell Davies 9, alternative Mendelssohn (Chailly), I Fagiolini (Viadano, Monteverdi & especially G.Gabrieli), the Cage celebration, Kunst der Fuge and Musicalisches Opfer (in enjoyable instrumentations), Boulez, Gurrelieder and a couple of the new works.
For the best part of the rest it was as usual: re-chewing war horses (Beethoven, Brahms, RVW, Mahler, Strauss, Dvorak. Elgar, Delius. Some of them great performances, but still: war horses). I don't think it is a too negative judgement to say "Thank goodness, it's over".

So the Proms, much like Breakfast, must have no "war horses"?

Each to his own, I have enjoyed them and feel a loss now they are over.

[Barbirollians]

The problems were as much musical as technical and if you don't like other people's opinions then don't read them.

The question is not the opinion but how they are expressed - as if the holder of the opinion must be right .

[cloughie]

So the Proms, much like Breakfast, must have no "war horses"?

Each to his own, I have enjoyed them and feel a loss now they are over.

The Proms rightly revolves around 'war-horses' peppered with the less familiar. Better than Breakast though as we get the whole nag not just butchered dobbin!

[David-G]

For the best part of the rest it was as usual and for me completely and utterly superfluous: re-chewing war horses (Beethoven, Brahms, RVW, Mahler, Strauss, Dvorak. Elgar, Delius. Some of them great performances, but still: war horses). I don't think it is a too negative judgement to say "Thank goodness, it's over".

I fail to understand this view. Are you saying that it would have been better if these performances had not happened? Better that this music was not played? Better that nobody had a chance to listen to and perhaps enjoy them? There is after all no obligation for you to listen to performances that you feel to be superfluous.

[Ariosto]

The question is not the opinion but how they are expressed - as if the holder of the opinion must be right .

"Some incredibly pompous "wood for the trees" criticism on this thread . The performances moved me whatever any technical deficiencies . "

Then you must be more specific and not make generalisations as you have above. Name a few names.

[Tony Halstead]

one of our poor provincial bands - say the Halle under Elder for example.

[Ariosto]

[euthynicus]

The question is not the opinion but how they are expressed - as if the holder of the opinion must be right .

Since Ariosto and I are the only two who have been critical on the thread, I'm guessing you include me in your criticism. Funnily enough, last time I was here, a month or so ago, I was shooed away with a charge of 'clever-clever' posturing. And it confounds me on several levels. I joined this forum expecting and hoping to find a community of critical minds and informed ears. I wouldn't dream of making ad hominem assaults, and I've no wish to rain on anyone's parade. But one must speak as one hears, no? If others enjoyed the music-making on Friday more than me, good. But this is a forum, isn't it? And such criticisms I raised, I deliberately did so in general terms, in order not to baffle with jargon. But anyone can rebut them, or listen again on iPlayer to hear whether or not they disagree.

Now everyone seems agreed about the quite vague formulation that Haitink conducted the Alpine as though it were a traditional symphony, priveliging coherence over dramatic narrative. Then we can start to explore whether or not that's a good thing, whether it represents an approach that's faithful to the spirit as well as the letter of the score. But matters of ensemble are surely less up for discussion. Either an orchestra plays in time and together, or it doesn't. And the VPO didn't. And that's quite important!

[Ariosto]

Since Ariosto and I are the only two who have been critical on the thread, I'm guessing you include me in your criticism. Funnily enough, last time I was here, a month or so ago, I was shooed away with a charge of 'clever-clever' posturing. And it confounds me on several levels. I joined this forum expecting and hoping to find a community of critical minds and informed ears. I wouldn't dream of making ad hominem assaults, and I've no wish to rain on anyone's parade. But one must speak as one hears, no? If others enjoyed the music-making on Friday more than me, good. But this is a forum, isn't it? And such criticisms I raised, I deliberately did so in general terms, in order not to baffle with jargon. But anyone can rebut them, or listen again on iPlayer to hear whether or not they disagree.

Now everyone seems agreed about the quite vague formulation that Haitink conducted the Alpine as though it were a traditional symphony, priveliging coherence over dramatic narrative. Then we can start to explore whether or not that's a good thing, whether it represents an approach that's faithful to the spirit as well as the letter of the score. But matters of ensemble are surely less up for discussion. Either an orchestra plays in time and together, or it doesn't. And the VPO didn't. And that's quite important!

Well said, euthynicus, and I think personally that you are right to say this. Keep it up!

One of the problems with this forum is that some members do get quite shirty when any criticism is made of one of their pet ensembles/soloist etc., etc. (See the thread about Stanislaw Skrowaczewski, where I had the cheek to say I found him rather dry when I attended a Prom some years ago).

I'm normally a bit of a fan of both the VPO and Bernard Haitink, but even in situations where I've been part of a performace myself which has been poor, I've been known to be critical. Constructive criticism of course - I hope.

Some would think my criticism of Nicola Beneddetti's Bruch concerto during the LNoftheP's over the top, but I believe (and my opinion was asked by one poster) that the problems I see and hear technically and ultimately musically, are valid. If it was a pianist for example, I would probably only make musical criticisms (unless the technical deficincies were blatently obvious), as I'm not a pianist.

This forum needs people who can make valid points and critical judgements. Of course we must expect that some people will accuse us of doing a hatchet job, or words to that end.