Prom 75 (7.9.12): Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra – London & Alpine Symphonies

[Alison]

Back to earth tonight with Nicola struggling through the Bruch. Very poor.

The Vienna concerts rounded off the season proper in splendid fashion.

[cloughie]

Back to earth tonight with Nicola struggling through the Bruch. Very poor.

The Vienna concerts rounded off the season proper in splendid fashion.

Bit harsh Alison, I quite enjoyed it.

[Resurrection Man]

Eine Alpensinfonie ........Not sure about this one. I did originally have a ticket but fate intervened and I had to return it to the RAH. So possibly not that conducive to giving a fair hearing perhaps...but the odd pieces I have dipped into haven't engaged me.

I peeked at my recording of the TV programme but found the intense close-ups over-powering. Do we really need to zoom into the cornea of the trumpet player's left eye? Whatever happened to decent wide-angle shots. I digress.

Neither am I a great fan of Haitink...his Mahler leaves me stone-cold, for example.

Maybe it's one of those concerts that you needed to be at. I think one can only compare live performance with live performance and recording with recording. For me, though, old Horst still has it sussed.

[Resurrection Man]

Back to earth tonight with Nicola struggling through the Bruch. Very poor.

The Vienna concerts rounded off the season proper in splendid fashion.

Silk purse...sow's ear. That Bruch has always been a ghastly piece of music IMO.

[euthynicus]

Just listening to the Haydn on iPlayer - the balance and sound a bit muddy. The orchestra struggles a bit in the opening and generally sounds tired and not in top form.
Yes, the string playing is definitely under par. Rhythms a bit shaky. Usually a good band but not in this concert, judging by the Haydn at least.

Have to prevent you being a lone dissenting voice here, Ariosto. The playing on Friday was disgustingly lazy. Strong term, but not used lightly. If the Strauss sounded marginally more together, it was only because (again with uncharacteristic brutality) the brass decided discretion was the better part of valour and obliterated their colleagues. They looked sullen and miserable, and (who knows? I don't) that may have had something to do with Haitink's storming off at the end of the Haydn and refusing to acknowledge the applause. If leader Kuechl wasn't summoned to the manager's office at half time for the hairdryer treatment, he should have been, not that (if he was, and he looked incandescent) it made any difference, because he carried on playing a quarter beat ahead of the section, that is when they were playing together, which was rarely. They sounded a different band from the one that took Brahms and Schumann to the Barbican in June. And indeed they probably were, since the Vienna Philharmonic aka the Vienna State Opera have also been playing Don Carlo this week, in Vienna. Matters of interpretation were rendered insignificant, though the slow introduction to the Haydn promised a stoic gravity which would have made an interesting counterweight to the previous night's remarkable Bruckner 9, but then dissipated in a miasma of poor ensemble. Given that the Prom was being shown across Europe (not just by the BBC) it was a curious decision by this ever-cussedly individual collective not to turn up and show willing. In the Strauss they looked and sounded desperate to be doing it back at home with Thielemann.

[Ariosto]

Have to prevent you being a lone dissenting voice here, Ariosto. The playing on Friday was disgustingly lazy. Strong term, but not used lightly. If the Strauss sounded marginally more together, it was only because (again with uncharacteristic brutality) the brass decided discretion was the better part of valour and obliterated their colleagues. They looked sullen and miserable, and (who knows? I don't) that may have had something to do with Haitink's storming off at the end of the Haydn and refusing to acknowledge the applause. If leader Kuechl wasn't summoned to the manager's office at half time for the hairdryer treatment, he should have been, not that (if he was, and he looked incandescent) it made any difference, because he carried on playing a quarter beat ahead of the section, that is when they were playing together, which was rarely. They sounded a different band from the one that took Brahms and Schumann to the Barbican in June. And indeed they probably were, since the Vienna Philharmonic aka the Vienna State Opera have also been playing Don Carlo this week, in Vienna. Matters of interpretation were rendered insignificant, though the slow introduction to the Haydn promised a stoic gravity which would have made an interesting counterweight to the previous night's remarkable Bruckner 9, but then dissipated in a miasma of poor ensemble. Given that the Prom was being shown across Europe (not just by the BBC) it was a curious decision by this ever-cussedly individual collective not to turn up and show willing. In the Strauss they looked and sounded desperate to be doing it back at home with Thielemann.

I'm extremely pleased, even overjoyed, at finding another poster with some sort of musical judgement. I can't believe that members of this forum could have possibly thought the Haydn 104 D major symphony well played. This was an orchestra whose past standards seem to have abandoned it. To me it sounded like one of our poor provincial bands - say the Halle under Elder for example. Normally I admire the Vienna Phil and Haitink, but maybe they just can't sustain the usual standards under commercial pressure, and perhaps it's time for BH to retire, after all he is 80+ years old. Of course in todays fast moving pressurised world I have sympathy for the players and conductors who have to fulfill engagements come what may. Commercial pressure often results in artistic standards being swept under the carpet.

Thank god the Proms are over.

[kernelbogey]

Odd that I haven't read a word against the VPO's Bruckner performance on the 6th (Prom 74), although apparently the orchestra had flown in from Vienna on the day. Is the performance which Ariosto's criticises the victim of fatigue, or perhaps of under-rehearsal?

[Roehre]

....Normally I admire the Vienna Phil and Haitink, but maybe they just can't sustain the usual standards under commercial pressure, and perhaps it's time for BH to retire, after all he is 80+ years old. ....

Haitink is 83 now.

Thank god the Proms are over.

Makes two of us.

[euthynicus]

Odd that I haven't read a word against the VPO's Bruckner performance on the 6th (Prom 74), although apparently the orchestra had flown in from Vienna on the day. Is the performance which Ariosto's criticises the victim of fatigue, or perhaps of under-rehearsal?

Oh in the case of the Haydn, surely under-rehearsal.

As for the Bruckner, its singularity more than compensated for, even crushingly outweighed, its technical deficiencies. No, they didn't play together during the Scherzo, perhaps because it was just too slow to phrase properly (though ensemble was better when Mehta did it with them at the RFH at an even more ponderous tempo). And the one real slippage in the Adagio occurred towards the return of the opening tutti, when, possibly in an effort to stop the performance grinding to a halt, Haitink tried to speed up, and they faltered noticeably, before returning to what at the time seemed a tempo giusto as unrepeatable, unlikely and (for Haitink) uncharacteristic as it was baleful, compellingly resistant to any lyrical impulse and heavily scored with a stoic acceptance of pain and even futility. In other words, Old Man's Bruckner in excelsis. BH's Mahler 9 with the LSO at a Prom a few years ago was cut from the same cloth, again very much slower than we're used to, at least from him. I like it a lot that he (contrary to reputation) does not rest on 'his' way of doing things, that even now you never know what you're going to get. But in terms of willing endeavour, speed of response and mutual understanding, the VPO were entirely outshone by the youngsters across the road when Haitink did Bruckner 8 with the RCM SO a couple of months ago. Now, they WERE rehearsed!

[vinteuil]

Thank god the Proms are over.

Makes two of us.

... makes three of us...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Eine Alpensinfonie ........Not sure about this one. I did originally have a ticket but fate intervened and I had to return it to the RAH. So possibly not that conducive to giving a fair hearing perhaps...but the odd pieces I have dipped into haven't engaged me...


...Maybe it's one of those concerts that you needed to be at. I think one can only compare live performance with live performance and recording with recording. For me, though, old Horst still has it sussed.

I agree about Horst Stein, but I think Haitink runs him close. I'm always interested in seeing how different orchestras interpret the thunder machine. Wagner's instrument was heavy metal balls inside a metal drum, rather than the large sheets of metal normally used in the Strauss.Interestingly, Friday night's performance used two metal sheets - one small and one large, with a player for each and all over in a matter of seconds.

[Madame Suggia]

I agree about Horst Stein, but I think Haitink runs him close. I'm always interested in seeing how different orchestras interpret the thunder machine. Wagner's instrument was heavy metal balls inside a metal drum, rather than the large sheets of metal normally used in the Strauss.Interestingly, Friday night's performance used two metal sheets - one small and one large, with a player for each and all over in a matter of seconds.

It was over rather quickly but very impressive from the arena. I loved the performance in particular the spooky opening, I feel the storm could have been tighter though but I guess I'm comparing it to recordings i've heard which is a mistake.

[Resurrection Man]

I've given it a good try. But after about 15 minutes came to the conclusion that, off radio, it was rather droll and so switched off. I'm sure it was much better live.

[Alison]

Previous Vienna proms have hardly been blemish free. A now departed leader got in quite a mess in a Haydn symphony and a Strauss encore under Barenboim went all over the place ensemble wise.
It's not hard to find fault if you are so inclined.

I see the Telegraph critic is more or less hailing them the finest band of all while respected judges have greatly appreciated these (admittedly unpredictable) performances of standard repertoire.

[amateur51]

I'm extremely pleased, even overjoyed, at finding another poster with some sort of musical judgement. I can't believe that members of this forum could have possibly thought the Haydn 104 D major symphony well played. This was an orchestra whose past standards seem to have abandoned it. To me it sounded like one of our poor provincial bands - say the Halle under Elder for example. Normally I admire the Vienna Phil and Haitink, but maybe they just can't sustain the usual standards under commercial pressure, and perhaps it's time for BH to retire, after all he is 80+ years old. Of course in todays fast moving pressurised world I have sympathy for the players and conductors who have to fulfill engagements come what may. Commercial pressure often results in artistic standards being swept under the carpet.

Thank god the Proms are over.

In case Maestro Haitink gets to read this, this opinion is from one who would like a reputation for eating conductors for breakfast but who routinely chokes on a rusk

Pay no attention - he'll be asleep soon enough, bless