Mozart symphonies - who is going to play them in the future ?

[Barbirollians]

A compelling piece by Martin Kettle in the Guardian drawn to my attention on another thread. I do not understand why symphony orchestras have stopped playing them . Dogmatic HIPPites may rejoice but not me . It also does not make much sense when the symphony orchestra happily continues accompanying pianists in Mozart .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/19/proms-neglect-mozart-genius

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A compelling piece by Martin Kettle in the Guardian drawn to my attention on another thread. I do not understand why symphony orchestras have stopped playing them . Dogmatic HIPPites may rejoice but not me . It also does not make much sense when the symphony orchestra happily continues accompanying pianists in Mozart .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-mozart-genius

I must stifle my energing "I told you so". The HIPPsters have been so vocal and influential for so many years now that even I have a twing of conscience when I sit at my Steinway piano to play a Mozart sonata. The fact that is sounds magnificent when played in this way is nevertheless a sin and would bring about derision from the Nouveau Establishment music critics.

Why, therefore, would a symphony orchestra play these works, in the full knowledge that the oh-so-superior academics will attempt to make mincemeat with their performances, irrespective of their actual quality?

[pilamenon]

They might be a bit out of fashion at the moment, but I'm sure that they'll be back - if not on quite such a regular basis as they once were. There's so much competition nowadays, and more creativity and imagination in programming. Certainly the Proms seasons I've looked at from some of the 1970s and 1980s were nowhere near so varied as nowadays. I enjoy them, but can't get too bothered about this, frankly.

[cloughie]

They might not play them in concert, but I have a plentiful supply in infinite variety of interpretations to put on my deck! They'll never go away - too good for that!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Right, when we've all taken our medication, perhaps we might like to reflect on the following points:
1) The quoted article is primarily about the absence of Mozart from the Proms.
2) That many members of Symphony Orchestras also play in the "Period Orchestras" that play Mozart.
3) That the decline in popularity of large Symphony Orchestras playing Mozart began with the establishment of (modern instrument) Chamber Orchestras - again whose membership often overlaps with those of the big boys.
4) For some daft reason, audience attendance numbers for Symphony Orchestra concerts fall if any but the most familiar Mozart works are programmed (the situation is worse for Haydn).

The image of a HIPPite mafia kidnapping the six-year-old daughters of Symphony Orchestra members to ensure they "keep off our manner" is an amusing aspect of these Boards; but it is more worthy of a satirical sketch show than a serious matter for discussion. Even more unlikely is that the "sneering" opinions of critics and academics is making anyone quake in their boots: there aren't any Music Critics any more, and academicians are keep firmly in their cages, well away from any possibility of having any influence on the commercial sector.

But then, I speak as an "oh-so inferior academic".

[Nick Armstrong]

Right, when we've all taken our medication, perhaps we might like to reflect on the following points

In fighting form, ferney

[cloughie]

The image of a HIPPite mafia kidnapping the six-year-old daughters of Symphony Orchestra members to ensure they "keep off our manner" is an amusing aspect of these Boards; but it is more worthy of a satirical sketch show than a serious matter for discussion. Even more unlikely is that the "sneering" opinions of critics and academics is making anyone quake in their boots: there aren't any Music Critics any more, and academicians are keep firmly in their cages, well away from any possibility of having any influence on the commercial sector.

But then, I speak as an "oh-so inferior academic".

I suppose really is whether you are an Academic of Ancient Music or an Academic of St Martin in the Fields.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

situation is worse for Haydn).

Even more unlikely is that the "sneering" opinions of critics and academics is making anyone quake in their boots: there aren't any Music Critics any more, and academicians are keep firmly in their cages, well away from any possibility of having any influence on the commercial sector.

So a reviewer in Gramophone is not a critic. As for the "sneering" attitude, I haven't yet quite recovered from Roy Goodman's BaL on Beethoven's Violin Concerto.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So a reviewer in Gramophone is not a critic. As for the "sneering" attitude, I haven't yet quite recovered from Roy Goodman's BaL on Beethoven's Violin Concerto.

Gramophone? Gramophone?? Who takes Gramophone seriously? Is it really the case that, say, the London Symphony Orchestra doesn't programme a Mozart Symphony because they're afraid that someone will "make mincemeat" of their performance/recording in Gramophone?

Sorry; I was "sneering" then. But really ...

And, as for Goodman - if these Boards are anything to go by, nobody takes anything BaL suggests seriously unless it corresponds with their own opinions. Have sales of Menuhin & Furtwangler drooped since Goodman's comments? Has Colin Davis cancelled any plans to programme it because of Roy Goodman's opinions? Claudio Abbado trying to keep any Lucerne performances quiet just in case news leaks out to Roy "the sneer" Goodman and his pals?

[amateur51]

Gramophone? Gramophone?? Who takes Gramophone seriously? Is it really the case that, say, the London Symphony Orchestra doesn't programme a Mozart Symphony because they're afraid that someone will "make mincemeat" of their performance/recording in Gramophone?

Sorry; I was "sneering" then. But really ...

And, as for Goodman - if these Boards are anything to go by, nobody takes anything BaL suggests seriously unless it corresponds with their own opinions. Have sales of Menuhin & Furtwangler drooped since Goodman's comments? Has Colin Davis cancelled any plans to programme it because of Roy Goodman's opinions? Claudio Abbado trying to keep any Lucerne performances quiet just in case news leaks out to Roy "the sneer" Goodman and his pals?

Good points all, ferney

I'm not an academic nor a practitioner nor a reviewer - I'm a listener me and an amateur one at that

I really enjoyed the Goodman BaL because it was radically different from the usual BaL. It opened my ears to new perspectives. I also enjoy the 'old style' recordings - thrilled to bits that I can now get the wonderful performance of Beethoven violin concerto by Hans Krebbers, former leader of Concertgebouw Amsterdam under Haitink as well as more modern re-thinkings - variety is the spice of life after all

Why does it have to be 'either/or'?

Perhaps too much Richard Strauss warps the critical faculties, EA?

[cloughie]

Good points all, ferney

I'm not an academic nor a practitioner nor a reviewer - I'm a listener me and an amateur one at that

I really enjoyed the Goodman BaL because it was radically different from the usual BaL. It opened my ears to new perspectives. I also enjoy the 'old style' recordings - thrilled to bits that I can now get the wonderful performance of Beethoven violin concerto by Hans Krebbers, former leader of Concertgebouw Amsterdam under Haitink as well as more modern re-thinkings - variety is the spice of life after all

Why does it have to be 'either/or'?

Perhaps too much Richard Strauss warps the critical faculties, EA?

Ammy i tend to go along with your thinking - I work on what my ears communicate to my brain! However can you have too much R Strauss - well maybe if its too warbly and vibrato laden. Milstein/Steinberg would be my Brahms of choice, by the way. However back to Mozart I quite like Pinnock when looking back to orig instruments and styles but LSO/Maag in Sym 38 and Kertesz in Sym 39 take some beating, but the Abbado Mozart Orchestra recordings are very good too.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Why does it have to be 'either/or'?

That's what I've always said. But there are fanatics who are just too dogmatic to accept such reasoning, e.g. the reviewer/conductor/former chorister to whom I referred.

Perhaps too much Richard Strauss warps the critical faculties, EA?

I hardly ever listen to Richard Strauss. I listen to Mozart, Elgar, V.W., Puccini & Beethoven much more. Just an idée fixe on one Strauss work, I'm afraid.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Why does it have to be 'either/or'?

As with so many things in life , of course it doesn't!

Just running through the concert series for the next twelve months given by some of the main non-London Orchestras. The statistics are worthy of attention:

Hallé Orchestra: c 95 concerts (including "touring repeats"): 10 performances of 4 works by Haydn; 7 performances of 4 works by Mozart; 1 Messiah.

CBSO: c 115 concerts (including tour repeats): 20 performances of works by Mozart (details of specific works not given on website); 2 performances of works by Haydn; 2 performances of work(s) by Hummel; 1 Messiah.

Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra: 41 "local" concerts (can't find details of any tours): 6 performances of 5 works by Mozart (including two all-Mozart evenings); 1 performance of 1 work by Haydn.

Royal Liverpool Phil: 76 concerts (incl tour repeats): 5 performances of Mozart; 1 Haydn; 1 Messiah; and an evening of Baroque Music (including The Four Seasons) performed twice.

Now, is it those cadish academics and HIPPsters that are scaring orchestras away? Well, it is interesting that all the orchestras each have several evenings of Film Scores, Songs From the Shows; Andrew Lloyd-Webber 65th Birthday celebration concerts (the Hallé, to its eternal credit, avoiding this anniversary - they're celebrating Ivor Novello, instead); Christmas Concerts; New Year in Vienna events and Family Favourite concerts. I can't imagine (and that is a statement I rarely make!) that the "oh-so-clever academics" and Gramophone critics are cheering such programming from the rafters. Nor can we hold Roger Wright responsible for this particular crime against Music. So, I would humbly suggest that there are other factors at large that are responsible for the paucity of performances of Music from before the 19th Century by the large, professional Symphony Orchestras - the same/similar factors as those keeping much post-19th Century Music off programmes, too: there aren't enough people going to the concerts to warrant the expense?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ferneyhoughgeliebte, you invariably give a reasoned argument, and this is no exception. Sadly, not everyone is so reasonable...

[aeolium]

I agree with you, ferney, that the factors affecting scheduling of Mozart (and Haydn) symphonies by the 'big' orchestras are not really to do with HIPP issues but more to do with box-office pressure. It's interesting checking the London programmes - South Bank Centre and Barbican - where there were a couple of Haydn's London symphonies and one of Mozart at the Barbican while the only JS/WAM symphonies at the South Bank are to be played by the OAE (an orchestra I much admire).
Going back to the OP question and broadening it to include Haydn, I think that when the current older generation of conductors (Davis, Ashkenazy, Abbado, Haitink, Barenboim etc) have left the scene it may well be increasingly rare to see these symphonies on programmes for the non-period bands, and the opportunities to hear non-period performances of these works will be largely confined to CDs/downloads.