Mozart symphonies - who is going to play them in the future ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maybe, but what is happening to performances of Mozart?
What is being played instead?

I refer the honourable fellow Forumista to # 51 above:

the works "replacing" Mozart on the programmes of the Symphonies orchestras aren't CPE Bach, or Pleyel, or John Marsh. Nor is it Carter, Sciarrino, Lachenmann or Saariaho. Or Madetoja, Gade, Sterndale Bennett or Djargomyzhki. Alongside whole universes of Planets, Carminas Burani, Bruch g minors, Elgar 'cello Concertos etc etc, it's "Songs from the Shows" and "Hits from the Silver Screen" that have usurped Joe and Wolfie.

[Roehre]

...it was Karl Bohm's traditional forces BPO set that brought the full 1-41 to us.(OK there was no 2 3 or 37).

Not quite. Though dating from the late 1960s and early 1970s (the whole set was ready by 1971 iirc, and immediately re-released as part of the 1973 DGG The Symphony Edition - celebrating 75 years of DGG), it was not the first to be available: that honour is Erich Leinsdorf's (even including nos. 2 KV17, 3 KV 18 and 37 KV444) on Westminster, quite recently re-released (2010, 2011?)

[Roehre]

The numbering system for Mozart symphonies is confusing, to sya the least. Although no. 41 is Mozart's last known symphony, there is a "42", and a 43, 44, 45, 46, 47...etc. Fare better to abandon the old numbering system and adopt the Einealpensinfonieedition numbering, which I first introduced on this forum several months ago:-

Originally Posted by Pabmusic
However, how about a novel numbering system, based on - say - Fibonacci numbers. Symphonies 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377 (that should cover the fragments).
Let's do the same with Mozart's symphonies. (I did consider sending this one out on 1st April, but I was away on holiday at the time:

1 in E flat K.16
2 in D K.19
3 in F K.19a
4 in B flat K.22
5 in C K.35
6 in D K.38
7 in F K.43
8 in D K.45
9 in G K.45a “Old Lambach”
10 in G K.46b
11 in D K.48
12 in D K.62a
13 in C K.73
14 in G K.74
15 in D K.87/74a
16 in D minor K.118/74c
17 in G K.110/75b
18 in D K.120/111a
19 in F K.112
20 in A K.114
21 in G K.124
22 in C K.128
23 in G K.129
24 in F K.130
25 in E flat K.132
26 in D K.133
27 in A K.134
28 in D K.135
29 in D K.161 & 163 /141a
30 in E flat K.184/161a
31 in G K.199/161b
32 in C K.162
33 in D K.181/162b
34 in B flat K.182/173dA
35 in G minor K.183/173dB
36 in A K.201/186a
37 in D K.202/186b
38 in D K.203/189b
39 in C K.200/189k
40 in D K.121/207a
41 in D K.204/213a
42 in C K.102/213c
43 in D (from “Haffner” Serenade) K.250/248b
44 in D “Paris” K.279/300a
45 in G K.318
46 in B flat K.319
47 in D K.320
48 in C K.338
49 in D “Haffner” K.385
50 in C “Linz” K.425
51 in D “Prague” K.504
52 in E flat K.543
53 in G minor K.550
54 in C “Jupiter” K.551

(Numbers 2,3 & 37 of the old system are finally put to rest.)

Just stick to the list as given in Neil Zaslaw's Mozart Symphonies (a spin off of the Hogwood AAM recordings late 1970s)- as there are big problemes to be solved regarding numbering Mozart's works anyhow for the 8th Edition of the Köchel Verzeichnis. One of the changes being the consequent numbering of fragments as such, another however is to leave the Breitkopf & Härtel numbering for the Symphonies intact as being universally recognisable (i.e. 1-41 w/h 42-55)

[Ariosto]

It seems to me to be VERY unfortunate if all we get is Rattle conducting that awful Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment whose members haven't yet learnt to play their instruments.

This is one reason I rarely listen to a Prom concert these days.

[Flosshilde]

Ariosto reminds me of John Lewis - never knowingly understated. Or is it Margaret Thatcher - 'everyone's out of step except me'?

[amateur51]

Ariosto reminds me of John Lewis - never knowingly understated. Or is it Margaret Thatcher - 'everyone's out of step except me'?

[gurnemanz]

I've only just caught up with this thread and haven't really got much to add to the interesting points made above except to report that it prompted a visit upstairs to my programme "archive" in the spare bedroom. I can still remember being spellbound by the the sound made by the opening bars of K550 which was the first item on the programme of my first ever live orchestral concert as a 19-year-old in 1968. The first half of this Prom conducted by Colin Davis was all Mozart - the G minor Symphony, K364 Sinfonia Concertante and the K467 Piano Concerto, by which time it must have been after 9pm because each of those is about half an hour long. We then came back for a second half with works by Busoni, Wolpe, Dallapiccola and Johann Strauss with a new conductor, Frederik Prausnitz. I've still got the programme for the whole season: One other Mozart symphony was done that year - the Linz with Barbirolli and the Hallé as part of a Viennese Evening

Whatever fads and vagaries of taste in programming may occur in future I for one will always be up for a Mozart symphony.

[Flosshilde]

The first half of this Prom conducted by Colin Davis was all Mozart - the G minor Symphony, K364 Sinfonia Concertante and the K467 Piano Concerto, by which time it must have been after 9pm because each of those is about half an hour long. We then came back for a second half with works by Busoni, Wolpe, Dallapiccola and Johann Strauss with a new conductor, Frederik Prausnitz.

Rather off-topic, I know, but although the number of Prom concerts have increased, they seem to have become shorter, so perhaps the total amount of music (in hours) has stayed the same?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just stick to the list as given in Neil Zaslaw's Mozart Symphonies (a spin off of the Hogwood AAM recordings late 1970s)- as there are big problemes to be solved regarding numbering Mozart's works anyhow for the 8th Edition of the Köchel Verzeichnis. One of the changes being the consequent numbering of fragments as such, another however is to leave the Breitkopf & Härtel numbering for the Symphonies intact as being universally recognisable (i.e. 1-41 w/h 42-55)

Yes, but on that premise, we should have left Dvorak's Symphonies as 1 - 5 plus 4 more unnumbered ones.

[Barbirollians]

Here is my idea of a Mozart Prom

Symphony no 28 - all too seldom played
K365 - with Argerich and Kovacevich
Some of his concert arias with Sally Matthews
K550

[cloughie]

Yes, but on that premise, we should have left Dvorak's Symphonies as 1 - 5 plus 4 more unnumbered ones.

You presumably remember on ACL Sym 2 Schmitt Isserstedt, Sym 4 Szell and Sym 5 (New World) Jorda.

[Roehre]

Yes, but on that premise, we should have left Dvorak's Symphonies as 1 - 5 plus 4 more unnumbered ones.

No, as this numbering has established itself quite rapidly - the newest recording stating the New World Symphony as no.9(5) dates from 1978 IIRC, while the numbering 1-9 was introduced in the early 1960s IIRC. But even here the correct opus number for the Symphony in F, formerly known as no.3, now no.5, opus 24, is discarded for opus 76.
A change in KV-numbers (by adding the chronologically correct ones according to the latest research) PLUS a change in the "traditional" B&H numbering spells chaos, unless the latter are dropped altogether and the symphonies are just identified by their KV-number. This is increasingly the case already with the piano concertos and the string quartets, thought these genres are not really necessarily subject to a re-numbering as the symphonies are.

[Roehre]

You presumably remember on ACL Sym 2 Schmitt Isserstedt, Sym 4 Szell and Sym 5 (New World) Jorda.

...or the DGG recordings BPO/Kubelik as 6(1), 7(2), 8(4) and 9(5), used in the original releases 1968-1970, but already completely dropped in the DDG The Symphony box-set Dvorak Symphonies from 1973.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I suppose it would Be something of a culture shock to say Mozart's 53rd, instead of Mozart's 40th.

[Roehre]

I suppose it would Be something of a culture shock to say Mozart's 53rd, instead of Mozart's 40th.

I'm afraid so - but what if one of those symphonies re-emerges which hasn't been accounted for yet ? Renumbering again?